Talk:Brigantes

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Celtic tribe

Sorry, but where is the evidence or attestation that the Brigantes were Celts? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 156.208.75.178 (talk) 06:54, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

Aside from the name itself being provably Celtic, there is ample onomastic evidence supporting their Celticity. Cagwinn (talk) 18:35, 31 August 2018 (UTC)

It is unsafe to assume they were Celtic based on Latinisation of indigenous names, I suggest. It is generally accepted that the use of Ancient Briton is safer than Celt. Firsteleventh (talk) 18:12, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

Untitled

It is possible that one of the purposes of Hadrian's Wall (begun in 122) was to keep the Brigantes from making discourse with the tribes in what is now the lowlands of Scotland on the other side. SOURCE? You can literally write anything if you state it is possible...don't we need evidence to back such a claim? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.25.12.49 (talk) 21:45, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Brigand

I've removed the reference to "Brigand" being possibly derived from the Brigantes. Dictionary.com derives it from "Old Italian brigante, skirmisher, from present participle of brigare, to fight". The Concise Oxford gives the same derivation. --Nicknack009 11:52, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

The Celts were known for FIGHTING... 'Brigand' is a derogatory RACIAL SLUR just like the Germanic equivalent "Vandal", as well as "Gothic Architecture" (a reference to Gothic Architecture being as ugly as the burned out buildings the ancient evil evil Goths left behind in Byzantium & Rome, "Barbarian Architecture"). Brigand, Vandal, and Gothic are all racially derived slurs and epithets. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.143.68.244 (talk • contribs) 01:20, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm not really sure what 24.143.68.244 is trying to get at, surely you realise that in those times people only showed loyalty to their immediate peoples, probably seeing most people as a threat, it wasn't really 'racism' unless every tribe alien to the specific tribe were subjected to 'it'. Gazh 14:28, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

I saw this think regarding to the word Brigante too and still seems to be in regular use in the Italian language, the description seems very similar to the reputation the tribe has as a fighting nation and perhaps it could be connected to fighting against the surrounding tribes and then the Romans? I think there should be a section about the name and its possibile connections. - Yorkshirian (talk) 07:01, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Brigantia

All of the toponyms mentioned in this article or in the article about Brigantia have nothing to do with this Celtic godess, but rather their names reffer to the type of terrain they are/were located on. The Indoeuropean root of this "BRIG" denotes 1) a 'slope' (of a hill or a mountain; compare German 'Berg' = mountain, Slovene 'breg' = slope etc.) or 2) 'a bank', 'a coast' (of a river, lake, sea; compare Russian 'bereg' = bank, South-Slavic 'breg' or 'brijeg' = bank, Irish 'bruach' = bank, etc). In short - it denotes a certain type of 'higher ground'.

1) The ancient Brigantium (nowadays Bregenz in Austria) stood on the bank of Lake Constance;

2) The ancient Brigetio (a city in Pannonia) stood on the bank of the river Danube;

3) The ancient Brigantium (nowadays Briançon in France, the second highest city in Europe) was built on a plateau which dominates the junction of the Durance river with the Guisane;

4) The ancient Brigantium (nowadays Coruna in Spain) stood on the coast of the Atlantic;

5) The ancient region of Phrygia (from the tribe called Brigians) was first mentioned by Homer on the banks of the Sangarius (now Sakarya river) in Asia minor;

6) The ancient Brigantia (nowadays Bragança in Portugal) stood on a branch of the Sabor River south of the Culebra Mountains;

7) The modern English city - Brighton - stands on the southern coast of Britain;

8) The modern English town - Brigg - is situated on the bank of river Ancholme;

9) The modern English town - Brighouse - is situated on the bank of river Calder;

10) The modern Polish town - Brzeg (Brieg in German) - stands on the left bank of the Oder river and was in earlier documents referred to as 'Civitas Altae Ripae', meaning "city at high banks";

and so on and so on.

There are numerous such toponyms - ancient and modern - all over Europe, and - it seems - especially in Slavic lands. They absolutely cannot have anything to do with any Celtic godess, since many are found in areas that were never inhabited by Celts (in Poland or Ukraine, for example).

Here is a short list of a few such modern toponyms from my country (Slovenia) only:

Breg ob Bistrici (municipality Tržič)

Breg ob Kokri (municipality Preddvor)

Breg ob Savi (municipality Kranj)

Breg pri Borovnici (municipality Borovnica)

Breg pri Dobu (municipality Ivančna Gorica)

Breg pri Golem Brdu (municipality Brda)

Breg pri Kočevju (municipality Kočevje)

Breg pri Komendi (municipality Komenda)

Breg pri Konjicah (municipality Slovenske Konjice)

Breg pri Litiji (municipality Litija)

Breg pri Polzeli (municipality Polzela)

Breg pri Ribnici na Dolenjskem (municipality Ribnica)

Breg pri Sinjem Vrhu (municipality Črnomelj)

Breg pri Temenici (municipality Ivančna Gorica)

Breg pri Velikem Gabru (municipality Ivančna Gorica)

Breg pri Zagradcu (municipality Ivančna Gorica)

Breg (municipality Majšperk)

Breg (municipality Mežica)

Breg (municipality Sevnica)

Breg (municipality Žirovnica)

Brege (municipality Krško)

Breginj municipality Kobarid)

(http://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seznam_naselij_v_Sloveniji_%28dolgi_seznam%29)

Compare these names with the Austrian city of Bregenz (ancient Brigantium). All of them can be found either on slopes of hills, mountains etc. or on banks of rivers, streams etc. There are many more similar micro toponyms, known only to local population, and hundreds more in other countries.

From this BRIG comes also the English word bridge - a structure built between two "brigs" (banks) of a river. Compare also German 'Brück' (bridge) and Old Norse 'briggja' (jetty)

Considering that the inscription from Irthington, Yorkshire, says: "divine nymph Brigantia" and taking into acount that "Nymphs live in mountains and groves, by springs and rivers..." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nymph), it should be concluded that this locally worshipped nymph recieved her name from the same word BRIG. This, however, does not mean that the toponyms mentioned in both articles came from the name of this Celtic godess. Places were never originally named after gods or godesses, always after the features of the surrounding terrain or the socioeconomical function of the settlement. The tribal name Brigantes probably simply means 'mountain/hill people', while Brigantii of the eastern Alps were 'the people living on banks of Lake Constance'. 193.77.172.48 18:54, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject Ireland

I am removing the {{WikiProject Ireland}} tag as there is no substantial evidence presented of a relationship to Ireland other than a cursory mention. ww2censor 03:02, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

I've put it back, they were one of the original tribes of Ireland so it falls within topics related to it.Heres a map with their name in the South-East area - Yorkshirian (talk) 07:05, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

A petty point really but there is linguistic evidence that the Fir Domnann were related to the Dumnonii of the southwest- meaning the Briganti were unlikely to be the only Brythonic people in Ireland —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.155.130.130 (talk) 19:40, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Sub-Tribes

Where did the names and locations of the sub-tribes or pagi come from? ---G.T.N. —Preceding comment was added at 02:29, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Cartimandua

That Cartimandua picture is misleading. It looks like something from the Ottoman Empire as imagined by a 19th Century Romantic and the demure lady depicted is wearing nothing like the clothing of a woman from the Iron Age Celtic nobility. Would anyone object if it were simply removed? Paul S (talk) 19:20, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Out she goes, then. I'm not even sure Wikipedia was even allowed to use the pic in the first place. Paul S (talk) 16:25, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Fair call about the picture, it didn't add much to the article. An artist's impression would only be worthwhile if the artist was familiar with Brigantine culture. Nev1 (talk) 17:36, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Contributive edits

User:Rheton, none of the material you keep posting has anything to do with the Brigantes. Please stop it. --Nicknack009 (talk) 22:06, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Nicknack009: Etymology explains meaning and origin of words and names. Connection of mine and others explanation is evident, so it has strong relation to Brigantes name and instead of just quotations, explains it much clearly. Also it is linked to IE base, which is mentioned in the article. Please be cooperative and take it as enrichment. Rheton (talk) 22:10, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

The name of the Brigantes is not derived from proto-Slavonic *bergъ so putting in Slovene placenames adds nothing. Paul S (talk) 22:24, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

Basically it is *bregъ/*brigъ not *bergъ. This is very vehement claim that has nothing common with reality. Claim without scientific evidence or explanation has no consideration. What level of Slovene or other non English languages do you have? All of IE languages are connected and has sometimes common, but sometimes different meanings or relations. Words died in some area are still alive within others. As in Gallic, Sanskrit meaning is covered also in Slovene. Thus Slovene is one of the most archaic languages of Europe it is closely linked to Sanskrit. Do you know what Gallic word 'an grian' mean? In Slovene is more than evident! I wouldn't let the truth to be stamped down. Rheton (talk) 20:21, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

You seek to lecture me and then fail to even understand the difference between Gaelic and Gallic. You are engaged in Nationalist historiography of the clumsiest kind and have nothing to contribute to this page. Paul S (talk) 20:35, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

There is a lot of confusion with insular Celtic (Gallic/Gaelic). This is caused by language differentiation to dialects and language mixing by external influences. In Scotland, Gaelic is pronounced "Gallic" when talking in English, in Ireland and Man it is pronounced "Gaelic". Is the Scottish name Moravians disruptive nationalism, or has some smaller similarities with the name Moravians? Truth has no limit as human brain has. Rheton (talk) 00:14, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

The difference between "Gaelic" and "Gallic" is the very different history of the two words - i.e. the etymology, which is a more complicated subject than "sounds a bit like". Briefly, "Gaelic" is an Anglicisation of Gaeilge (Irish) and Gàidhlig (Scottish Gaelic), which both go back to Old Irish Goidelc, the form it took in the early middle ages. "Gallic" is an Anglicisation of Latin Gallicus, a form which existed a thousand years before Goidelc, and two thousand years before the Anglicisation of Gáidhlig sounded like "Gallic". Hence, the similar sound is clearly a coincidence. You are clearly out of your depth on the subject of etymology, and obsessively labelling your ill-informed interventions as "truth" merely makes you look like a crank. --Nicknack009 (talk) 10:27, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Source is missing.

Gall -> Gallicus (lat) -> Gallic (en).

Goidelc/Gaidhlig/Gaidglig indicates to the same origin. As I said ..language differentiation to dialects.. -> Gaelic (en) ..external influences..

Ref said: In Scotland, Gaelic is pronounced Gallic when talking in English, in Ireland and Man it is pronounced Gaelic.. It is not my claim.

Gaelic -> Gallic (Sc).

Gaelic -> Gaelic (Ir,Mn)

Why would Scottish take Latin form for Gall language to express Gàidhlig in English as Gallic? Aren't they just pronounce Gallic ..language differentiation.. instead Gaelic? It is very little difference. There are many much more complicated word transformations. Rheton (talk) 21:57, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

I'm going to assume your first language isn't English, because that makes no sense whatsoever. I will write as simply as I can. None of your edits to this article have had anything to do with the Brigantes. You do not understand the subject of etymology. You have abused Wikipedia's vandalism warnings. Go away. --Nicknack009 (talk) 10:59, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

You practically don't understand etymology. You didn't answer to any of questions? You give no adequate sources or evidences. Wikipedia community should not lead to fencing and poorness. I consider further talk to you as nonsense. Rheton (talk) 13:14, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

Dubious couple of paragraphs

I have marked the following two paragraphs as dubious:

Caesar describes the Brigantes as being culturally different from both the Romans and settlers from Gaul located in maritime regions of Britain, especially in the South East, where tribes known as the Belgae were settled. These are included in the culture of late prehistoric Britain known as Hawke's Iron Age 'C', which included the production of distinctive coins and pottery. In particular, Caesar describes tribes in Kent as being the most sophisticated.[13] The Brigantes were instead described as being inland Britons who were natives to the land; Caesar states them as being "animal-skin-wearing pastoralists and indigenous"[14] and therefore were perceived as being more primitive people, who had remained to themselves as a cultural continuity from the British Bronze Age. The Romans feared the Britons and the Brigantes were the most feared tribe.[15]

Roman soldiers would have found it difficult in Brigantia[16] to efficiently maneuver. The vast landscape varied from mountainous environments and steep hillsides of the Pennines, surrounding areas and rivers they would have had to cross. The Brigantes were also woodland and forest dwellers which would have been a new environment to some of the Romans as the majority of forests in Italy would have been significantly reduced from deforestation as a result of the building and expansion of cities. The weather conditions will have also made it difficult causing frozen land in winter and poor soil; some areas would have also formed bogs.[17]

• First, Caesar says nothing at all about the Brigantes. He talks about the inland tribes being different to the coastal ones and being indiginous, but he doesn't specify the Brigantes as this paragraph implies. He got nowhere near Brigantian territory and was likely talking about tribes much further south.

• The relative sophistication of the people of Kent over the rest of the Belgic settlers is irrelevant.

• The stuff about the Romans fearing the Britons and the Brigantes in particular is book-blurb-speak, sourced to a blog about a self-published book described by its author as "80 per cent facts and 20 per cent fiction". It has no place here.

• The second paragraph seems speculative and the sources don't look terribly reliable to me. The idea that forests would have been new to Roman soldiers is absurd, as they had experience of numerous campaigns in Gaul, Germany and elsewhere - it's not like the Romans had only experienced Italy before they went to Britain.

I propose, if the consensus agrees with me, to remove the first of these two paragraphs in its entirety. The paragraph about environmental conditions is probably salvageable, but needs attention and better sourcing. --Nicknack009 (talk) 16:36, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

Right, we've had the whole weekend and nobody's voiced any objections, so I've removed the first paragraph and reduced the second to what I think is defensible. --Nicknack009 (talk) 22:13, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

And I agree about the second paragraph - note that the "authorities" cited are a do-as-you-please site focussed on travel, complete with an advert for a Spanish villa to rent at the bottom of the page, and a lesson plan for young children, which in any case relates only to the (possibly Carvetian) Lake District. Removing it, too. Paul S (talk) 16:42, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Ethnic groups

WP Ethnic groups is for "ethnic groups, nationalities, and other cultural identities"; a tribe or tribal confederation seems to me to consist of people with a cultural identity.--Johnsoniensis (talk) 19:29, 15 September 2014 (UTC) P.S. Many Germanic and Celtic tribes have been included in WP Ethnic groups, e.g. Talk:Arevaci.--Johnsoniensis (talk) 16:38, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Not unless the archaeology points to clear cultural differences between the Brigantes and the Votadini, Corieltauvi, Deceangli, etc. Paul S (talk) 15:21, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Geography

Brigantes.

The Midlands.

The opening sentence (which links to the article on the English Midlands) makes no geographic sense:

"The Brigantes were a Celtic tribe who in pre-Roman times controlled the largest section of what would become Northern England, a significant part of the Midlands."

The North of England and the English Midlands are by their very definition not the same place. The map in the infobox certainly shows the tribe's area to be almost exclusively in the North. Apart from the northern part of Nottinghamshire, the shaded area does not extend into the Midlands at all.

I don't want to edit the article myself, as I do not know what areas this tribe actually inhabited and do not wish to compound the error. However, the information as presented cannot be correct - the North of England is not a significant part of the English Midlands! I would suggest it needs to read either "... Northern England and a significant part of the Midlands." (NB - this is not at all what the Brigantes map shows!), or just "...Northern England." P M C 09:15, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

The Settlements section lists nine settlements named by Ptolemy and five other settlements. At a glance they all look that they are in the North of England and not the Midlands. However, you are probably more clued in on English geography than I am. Look at the places named, and if they all fall within the map on the top you can safely take the Midlands out of the sentence. Scolaire (talk) 10:37, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Historical note: the phrase, "the largest section of Northern England and a significant part of the Midlands" was added in October 2007 by a user who was subsequently banned for "ongoing disruptive editing and source fabrication". I'm not sure when the "and" got lost. You may notice that that edit included Derbyshire, Nottinghamshire, West Cheshire and West Staffordshire in the territory of the Brigantes. I think you could safely ignore that. The map appears to have been taken from Roman-Britain.org, which does seem to include part of Derbyshire for some reason. Scolaire (talk) 10:54, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

The places listed in the Settlements section are all in the North - a couple of the places are even further north than the red-shaded area on the Brigantes map. I'll make the change. P M C 19:20, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Cool. Scolaire (talk) 20:57, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

I agree, which is why I shortened the number of counties in the infobox earlier. I don't trust that map much at all, or many of the other maps of tribes of Britons - they seem arbitary or made to conform to modern country and regional borders. Paul S (talk) 11:33, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

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Etymology section and sourcing issues

THe sourcing of various Roman cities called Brigantium (and their modern names) is insufficient. Some of the sources are just unreliable websites and others do not make an explicit connection to the celtic tribes or celtic language.--Kmhkmh (talk) 10:06, 16 January 2021 (UTC)