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where did it start? which countries fought in this battle? how long did it last? how many casualties were there? how many souldiers were killed? who commanded those to battle? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.70.11.96 (talk) 07:42, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
This article appears to be written from a thoroughly british viewpoint.68.4.61.113 05:19, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Still does as of today, it reads like only the Brits were there. 193.132.242.1 13:22, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
There are many things in Wikipedia that are crazily biased toward an English point of view. Weird, since it is basically an American web site with offices in California.
I think the Canadian view point is enormously overlooked in this article. It is a disgrace. 75.48.23.82 (talk) 03:37, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
The following paragraph is unnecessarily obscure:
For example,
Great explanations. Great page! Contratulations. ---Rednblu | Talk 00:28, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)
"Lord of the rings" author J. R. R. Tolkien were one of the men present in this battle (this is mentioned on his page). He brought little notebooks and made descriptions of what he called "hell". I believe these battles were his inspiration for the worst scenes in LOTR. How could we incorporate this into the page? --Brandnewbrain 26 Dec 2004
Hello. Thanks a lot to the authors of this article -- good work. It is not clear to me where, exactly, in France this battle took place. Can we have a small-scale map (showing all of France or maybe even all of Europe) near the beginning to show the general location? Actually a lot of the military history articles could benefit from small-scale maps to give context. 64.48.193.24 20:17, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
I don't understand why the estimates of German casualties vary so much. If the official documents from germany say it was about 160,000 dead, and the british historian who said 680,000 was discredited then why would they have the estimate go from 180,000 to 680,000?
The casualty figures seem indeed biased, especially regarding the relative percentage of the dead and missing as a share of total losses. According to the article, that ratio for the Germans forces would be nearly 38%, as opposed to only about 23.5% for the Anglo-French. Such a great discrepency contradicts the belligerents' official statistics for the Great War, as quoted in World_War_I_casualties: there it is about 30-33% for both sides.
This appears suspicious. Why should the Germans, who were not usually the attackers at the Somme in 1916, have suffered so many more KIA and MIA that the Allies?
Textor 05:33, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
There is of course dispute about casualty figures but do remember that much of battles like the Somme consisted of German counterattacks (it was actually Falkenhayn's policy to try to regain every scrap of ground lost). See Terraine's famous essay "The True Texture of the Somme" (which sadly I don't have to hand) in which he counted about sixty or seventy German counterattacks - many of them doubtless minor but which must have resulted in many German deaths. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.40.200.252 (talk) 14:57, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
This article smacks of Anglo-centric bias, written by the British, for the British. This needs a more neutral tone. We see the losses of French here were also huge...and of course the German. Not only that, we are told what the British 'back home' thought (but not the French, who lived there). Shame, shame that one would be so self-congratulatory as to give this article plaudits, when in fact the whole thing needs to be written in a more neutral tone. That is, the article should not assume the reader is from the UK. What if the reader were American? Do they see this as "British" history or as "World" history? World history, indeed.→ R Young {yakłtalk} 11:28, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Since we lump the various German posessions at the time into the 'German Empire', would it not be more appropriate to list 'British Empire, France' as the combatants on the Allied side? — ceejayoz talk 03:14, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
You are quite right. I have edited the list to reflect that in the First World War the British Empire was fully intact in the sense that all the Dominions and Colonies, although some had limited self-government, remained under the authority of Britain and fought under the Union Flag; even if a Dominion ensign was carried in some places at some time, e.g. Vimy Ridge. Contrary to the presentation of current historical revisionists who identify the Dominions as "allies", all the soldiers of the British Empire were "British" and the more appropriate differentiation would be the "nationalies" of the Dominions with "England, Scotland, Ireland, Wales". Indeed,the "Canadian Corps" was two-thirds UK born men. The Commonwealth did not yet exist and the Statute of Westminster was two decades away.--pidd 15:57, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
Indeed, and of the Australians who fought in WW1 a third were British-born and another third second generation (ie. had British parents). They regarded themselves as "British" in a way subsequent generations didn't.
Does seem revisionist.
I think we should delete the last paragraph as it gives a grossly exaggerated amount of men that were shot at dawn. Any thoughts.
"Consciencious Objectors"
The 386 number is incorrect, there weren't 386 soldiers executed for cowardice/consciencious objection, Im not even sure if Britain executed that many soldiers in the war period, and besides I don't see what the particular number of those executed in the entire war has to do with this battle, there surely weren't 386 people executed during the battle of the Somme. I opt to remove it.
Anomaly 54 17:02, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
I've just added a link to a new feature on our NZHistory.net.nz website. The feature was written by a professional historian and includes a number of images never before published.
I hope this is acceptable - please let me know if there is a problem with my adding this.
Jamie Mackay 20:23, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
I am surprised that wikepedia would elevate this article to featured article status. It probably serves well as a beginner's guide to the Somme with it's comprehensive dating and collection of facts. However the real history; the analysis and conlcusions are very poor. The fundamental conclusion of the piece is that the Somme was a success for the British. This beggars belief for anyone woth a smattering of knowledge of the Somme, the rest of WW1 and C.20th combat. This is not the place for a complete counter-thesis, but it is important that some elementary failings in the article are pointed out.
German losses were less sustainable (despite Germany having a larger population than the UK) because Germany was also having to fight against the French on the rest of the Western Front, and Russia in the East (where the Germans deployed about half as much strength as they had deployed in the West). Surely this is obvious. Plus, as has been pointed out many times by Gary Sheffield et al, the Germans were losing trained troops whereas the British weren't.
Germany managed to hold out at the Somme against large odds while scoring victories in the east conquering Romania and inflicting serious defeats on Russia that destabilized the Tsarist empire further. The problems that plagued germany in 1917 were not primarily manpower (having freed up tons and tons of veteran soldiers from the Eastern Front) but supply and logistics. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.13.90.39 (talk) 13:17, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
"Germany lost trained troops while Britain lost green ones is flawed at best" - no, it's a statement of fact. Germany, in common with continental countries, had more trained troops to start with as she had peacetime conscription. Hence the casualties of 1914-15 hit the BEF harder, but what on earth else was Britain supposed to do? Not fight? Occasionally one sees arguments along the lines of "Britain should have husbanded her resources for two years and built up a large, trained army" but this tends to come from the criticise-for-the-sake of criticism muckrakers. Standing aside in this way wasn't feasible - and incidentally Britain wasn't "on the defensive" in 1915 - there were various offensives, including Neuve Chapelle, Aubers Ridge and Loos - latter battle was quite big. Victories in the east in 1916? Well, there was Lake Narotch, and the Germans made a contribution to defeating the Brusilov Offensive. There were a few German divisions in Romania but most of the troops in that campaign were Turkish, Bulgarian and AH, not German. Saying "German conquest of Romania proves the failure of the Somme" is as daft as saying "Hitler was able to transfer a few divisions to Italy in 1943, so that proves the Soviets failed at Stalingrad and Kursk"! Bottom line: German High Command was always desperately scrabbling round for a handful of divisions that could plug some hole or other (and to be fair they did a very good job of it), as the recent Foley biog of Falkenhayn brings out. German shortage of manpower in 1917-18 is amply attested in German accounts, eg. Holger Herwig. Germany freed up some troops when Eastern Front ended, but not as many as is sometimes thought - large garrisons were left behind in the Ukraine etc, and those who did come west were often disaffected by Bolshevik propaganda and spread poor morale. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 171.192.0.10 (talk) 17:33, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
Someonoe has just deleted it... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.6.232.228 (talk • contribs) 18:24, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Like said in title, the casualties are often disputed, the source for the location of that data should be quoted. GBobly 23:01, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm confused - is this featured or not? This edit added the featured template Jooler 00:23, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
According to this article, "Zero-hour for the Battle of the Somme was 7:30 a.m. on 1 July 1916. Ten minutes prior to this, at 7:20 a.m., the mine beneath Hawthorn Ridge Redoubt was detonated by an officer. The reason he detonated the mine earlier than was planned is unknown." However, the Hawthorn Ridge Redoubt article gives an explanation for this. Which article is correct? Seleucus 00:49, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and might not be applicable for the article in question.
between a number and the unit of measurement. For example, instead of 2 miles, use 2 miles, which when you are editing the page, should look like: 2 miles.[?]You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Thanks, Mal 03:17, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
The last paragraph of the prelude states that the Englisch had with air superiority with "... ten squadrons and 185 aircraft against the 129 German squadrons". Shouldn't this be "...against the 129 German planes"? (In ?? squadrons). As I have no sources to check the numbers I hesitate to change it myself. Pukkie 09:35, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
I feel the Conclusions section is full of weasel words. I don’t think it’s appropriate for the author to simply label viewpoints with which they don’t agree as “revisionist”. Clearly some of the figures and viewpoints can indeed be discounted, but much of the time few definitive conclusions can really be drawn. It all adds up to a thoroughly POV end to the article, which is a shame. --62.173.76.218 11:57, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
"revisionist" is a better description of the Terraine/Sheffield school than the really poisonous and belittling "apologist".
Scott Fitzgerald writes very nicely about the Battle of the Somme in his book "Tender Is The Night" (Book I, Chapter XII )
"Dick turned the corner of the traverse and continued along the trench walking on the duckboard. He came to a periscope, looked through it a moment; then he got up on the step and peered over the parapet. In front of him beneath a dingy sky was Beaumont Hamel; to his left the tragic hill of Thiepval. Dick stared at them through his field glasses, his throat straining with sadness... ...“This land here cost twenty lives a foot that summer,” he said to Rosemary... ...“See that little stream—we could walk to it in two minutes. It took the British a month to walk to it—a whole empire walking very slowly, dying in front and pushing forward behind. And another empire walked very slowly backward a few inches a day, leaving the dead like a million bloody rugs. No Europeans will ever do that again in this generation.”"
I think it is worth to put it into the main article. What is your opinion? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 134.34.8.212 (talk) 16:11, 20 March 2007 (UTC).
Shouldn't this read "...on which British Empire forces suffered..." and "...the bloodiest day in the history of British Empire and British Army forces"? As it reads now, non-Britis casualties are being described as British. Fishhead64 21:21, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
On review, this bias is pervasive throughout the article.
As discussed above, Canada and Australia etc were regarded as "British" in 1916, far more so than in subsequent generations. (They didn't even declare war separately, IIRC, they just thought the UK's DOW was binding on them). The Somme was and is the big horror in British national memory, like Verdun, Vimy and Gallipoli are for other countries. Still, it could do with more French and German info.
There is a citations tag on the conclusions section. As I understand it this is requesting more citations for the argument counter-argument section headed "Strategic effects". I disagree with this approach. The original (2006) "Strategic effects" was a set of unsubstantiated opinions dressed up as fact. I edited it to show that these were opinions and that there were alternative views. On consideration my efforts to moderate this section with counterpoints is not the correct solution. Adding citations to these two counter-vailing viewpoints will only add a spurious credibility to the whole section. It is a bit like having a section comparing darwinian selction and creationism: adding citations to creationist authors is total fakery. The consensus throughout the C.20th was that the Somme was a military disaster for Britain. The theory being presented here that the Somme laid the foundations of Germany's defeat represents a revolution in historiography if it is true. A new controversial theory such as this requires a lot of supporting evidence and serious analysis and critique. It is inappropriate, even intellectually dishonest to present it as accepted history at the end of an article which is mostly a straightforward chronology.
If contributors want to continue to present this (entirely unconvincing) theory it should have it's own page.
The Strategic effects section should be deleted or reduced to a some sort of short one liner stating that it had no clear strategic effects and possibly linking to this controversial theory on a separate page. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Pmurnion (talk • contribs) 09:33, 6 May 2007 (UTC).
The "revolution in historiography" has been going on for decades, and is now almost a consensus among serious historians. It is only very recently (since the late 1990s) that it has started to penetrate popular consciousness. When I was a kid it always used to puzzle me how the Allies ever won the First World War. You had all these "disasters" (Gallipoli, Somme, Passchendaele etc), the Germans conquered various bits of Europe etc. Then the Germans mysteriously collapsed in the final round, supposedly because of the blockade (which in fact only really bit hard in the final years and into 1919) and/or the glorious American victory in the Argonne. Compared to that, the idea that the huge battles of the western front played a role in grinding down the German army is actually a great deal more convincing. That's not to say that the Somme was a spectacular victory, of course - merely that it was a necessary price. Nowadays we all live comfortable lives in the West (although some would argue that war is a necessary part of human existence and we have lost sight of how sheltered we are by our technological superiority) and it is hard to come to terms with how willingly our great-grandfathers went to their deaths, which is perhaps why those who point out a few home truths have to put up with comical abuse "Intellectual Dishonesty" "Disgrace to Scholarship" etc.
The blockade bit gradually on Germany throughout the war, its effects at this stage being mainly food shortages and slightly higher mortality rates among children and the elderly. Lack of potatoes did not defeat the German Army though - lack of manpower did, and large battles on the Western Front were a factor in this. "Death and malnutrition", among adults at any rate, were only widespread in Germany in the fianl stages of the war and in the year or so afterwards. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.134.22.101 (talk) 15:15, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
It's not "shortsighted", it's a statement of fact. The German Army was short on luxuries (hence the looting of captured British supplies in March 1918) but still perfectly capable of fighting - they managed some successful (tactically at any rate) offensives on all fronts in 1917 and 1918, blockade or no blockade, and strikes and unrest at home notwithstanding ("open revolt" is an exaggeration). The fact is that the German Army was beaten in the field and driven back in the latter part of 1918. The Kaiser was bundled out of the way (Hindenburg and Groener told him the Army would no longer support him) when it was clear Germany had no chance of winning the war - not before. It is not logically impossible that lack of supplies impacted the German Army's fighting performance, or that they were a factor in the decision that peace had to be sought at once rather than spending 1919 conducting a fighting retreat to the Rhine, but you'd need to make a much more sophisticated argument to demonstrate this - not the same as asserting the German Army was "stopped" by lack of "sufficient provisions". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 171.192.0.10 (talk) 15:34, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
The battle of Vimy ridge is not considered a Canadian victory, Vimy Ridge wasa canadian victory!
The article says arty lifted at zero hour; Regan, p.158, says ten minutes prior. Also, I deleted, "an act that would ultimately bring the United States into the war" as fiction; it was more due to Germany promising Texas to Mexico if she joined the war, revealled by the Zimmermann telegram, which the U.S., needless to say, couldn't reveal she'd read...but which, I would have thought, historiographers would have heard of. My mistake; it's persistently ignored.... Trekphiler 17:13, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
The article blatantly discounts the contribution of the French forces. However their contribution was far from negligible: 13 British and 11 French divisions were present at the start, moving on to 51 British and 48 French divisions at the end. Half the allied casualties were French. There clearly is a problem with the way the article is presently drafted. 193.132.242.1 13:30, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
It's a fault which it shares with almost all accounts in English. I suspect a French division may have been somewhat smaller than a British one though - the French would had originally planned to do more on the Somme but Verdun kicked off first. As for the skewing of the casualty figures (2/3 of them British) the French were more skilled in infantry/artillery tactics as they had been doing more fighting up until that point, and also German resistance was heavier on the British front as they had to cover the railway line through Bapaume. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.40.200.97 (talk) 23:36, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
The commander of the British 4th army was changed here from Henry S. Rawlinson to Darcy Hodgson. I reverted it, as I was unable to to find any mention of the latter, and would expect someone in that position to have an article, which they did not. If I am incorrect in this assumption, please feel free to correct me! Thanks --Kateshortforbob 21:11, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
These four sentences violate wikipedia NPOV guidelines:
As terrible as the battle was for the British Empire troops who suffered there, it naturally affected the other nationalities as well. One German officer (Captain von Hentig) famously described it as "the muddy grave of the German field army". By the end of the battle, the British had learned many lessons in modern warfare, while the Germans had suffered irreplaceable losses. British historian Sir James Edmonds stated: "It is not too much to claim that the foundations of the final victory on the Western Front were laid by the Somme offensive of 1916." [1]
The first sentence is a tautology, the second is insidious given the blatantly unbalanced sentence that follows it. It is in fact too much to claim "that the foundations of the final victory on the Western Front were laid by the Somme offensive of 1916," in the opening paragraph of a Wikipedia article, as this view is highly debatable, and not widely held by British historians. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tripalis (talk • contribs) 04:43, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
The Allied forces attempted to break through the German lines along a 95-mile (40 km) front north and south of the River Somme in northern France.
Should this be "95-km (40 mile)? 95 miles is a lot more than 40 km. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.193.65.250 (talk) 11:21, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
The Allied forces attempted to break through the German lines along a 95-mile (40 km) front north and south of the River Somme in northern France.
I don't think the front at the Somme was as long as 95 miles. If it was, then it would be 152 km, not 40. If the author meant to say 95 km, then it would be about 57 miles. If the front was 40 miles, then it would be 64 km.--Nunquam Dormio (talk) 15:19, 17 March 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Beetfarm Louie (talk • contribs) 11:47, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Reading http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I we find the following: "On 1 July 1916, the first day of the Battle of the Somme, the British Army endured the bloodiest day in its history, suffering 57,470 casualties and 19,240 dead. Most of the casualties occurred in the first hour of the attack. The entire offensive cost the British Army almost half a million men.
This article says: "The battle is best remembered for its first day, 1 July 1916, on which the British suffered 67,470 casualties, including 29,240 dead — the bloodiest day in the history of the British Army." Someone who knows something about the subject will want to fix one article, or the other, I am sure. Hi There (talk) 00:37, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
It's obvious that corrupting all the WWI battle pages has become a sport with semi-literate kids. Unless we lock the pages and restrict update to trusted users, we're going to be on a never-ending firefighting exercise. The idea that anonymous users contribute anything to Wikipedia is baloney. Rod. Rcbutcher (talk) 21:25, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
I've had a go at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_page_protection#Battle_of_the_Somme_.28edit.7Ctalk.7Chistory.7Clinks.7Cwatch.7Clogs.29 Nunquam Dormio (talk) 08:35, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
I've asked an admin to semi-protect the article. It's getting silly again. Nunquam Dormio (talk) 19:42, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
Also in the casualty section, could someone please change the word "scepticism" to the proper spelling which is "skepticism."
Isn't it somewhat tasteless, to say the very least, that there is a 'Trivia Section' right after the death toll of the battle? If JRR Tolkien was a combatant, then he should be listed in a section of people who were combatants —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.37.250.195 (talk) 16:33, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history.do?action=Article&id=50645 there are more articles on him, and even a whole book. although he was serving for the royal artillery, he was definitely of American nationality. a sacrifice as equal of any.70.135.12.223 (talk) 10:38, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
User:Trip Johnson has been changing this to an allied victory, although he has not provided references. I changed it back to indecisive, and it should stay that way unless a reference can be provided. (Bluemr145 (talk) 15:09, 20 May 2008 (UTC))
Joe, battles are not always about ground gained and the numbers of men lost; the purpose of this battle was to draw the German forces off the French at Verdun if one remembers correctly. The battle achieved this and allowed the French to launch a counterattack agaisnt the German Army. In a strategic sense this battle was an Allied victory, am surprised noone has provided a citation for such yet.--EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 07:02, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
Why are "nations" such as Canada, Australia, Newfoundland etc. etc. listed as combatants as nations in their own right? All of those "countries" were still part of the British Empire at the time of the Battle, so why are they all listed as if they are independent nations? Shouldn't it be part of somekind of list, such as:
British Empire
*Newfoundland *Canada *Australia
(Trip Johnson (talk) 12:09, 15 June 2008 (UTC))
The same thing happened in the west though it took longer because Britain had to assemble a continental sized army as well as deploy it. I fear that this prolonged the war perhaps by a couple of years. Consider that the British effort on the Somme with a partially equipped force had similar effects to the French offensives of 1915 - a small capture of ground for the same reason - the Germans fought so hard to hold it. The strain on the German defence was huge. The depletion of the means to do this equally so. For Falkenhayn the only chance Germany had was to fight in a way which conserved German manpower as much as it consumed the Entente's. A strictly defensive strategy wouldn't work so he tried to draw the westenders into attacks where German firepower would do what its limited manpower couldn't (Gorlice-Tarnow in reverse). It worked for a time, like the defence of Normandy in 1944, but the resilience of the Entente and its growing material and technological superiority was unbeatable. As the war went on, the speed of German's military depletion accelerated. What you wrote about 1918 I see as the culmination of this process. For all the changes in equipment by 1939-45 the course of that war wasn't much different. Even with the means to fight bewegungskrieg again, nazi Germany was still a talented middleweight taking on three heavyweights. Keith-264 (talk) 11:49, 26 October 2008 (UTC) Having written that there weren't any 'breakthroughs' in WWI (and precious few in WWII) I have been wondering about the Brusilov Offensive. Would that count or would its effect on the Austro-Hungarian army be analogous to the implosions of the French, Russian, Ottoman and German armies?Keith-264 (talk) 07:42, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
Casualties section has a division containing 10,000 men, I thought the British div was around 18,000 before the 1918 cuts.
"British losses, a product of Trenchard's aggressively offensive posture to the exclusion of superior German Air Service mobility and weather (prevailing winds blew towards the Allied side), contributed."
Erm, I don't know what this means. According to Biggles though, the prevailing winds are from east to west[west to east actually!]. Would 'British losses were high, caused by Trenchard's insistence on offensive action despite German air reinforcements and the weather.' help?Keith-264 (talk) 09:50, 27 October 2008 (UTC) Keith-264 (talk) 09:07, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
The German withdrawal of Feb 1917. Surely this was to establish German defences in fortified positions like the ones they had been driven out of at such cost on the Somme? Surely this suggests (at least) that the Germans believed that they couldn't withstand the semi-open and open warfare that began as they lost the fortifications they'd spent two years building? If the benefit of the new Hindenburg Line defences was as great as claimed, was the 'new policy' of Hindenburg and Ludendorff really that new? Isn't this a continuation of the war of exhaustion that Falkenhayn had been fighting since 1914 (as the only practical way for Germany to stave off defeat)? Keith-264 (talk) 10:47, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
Than you for replying. Apropos the Battle of Normandy, Terry Copp pointed out that if you look at events from the point of view of 'cost-benefit' analysis rather than a 'win-lose' narrative, Allied efforts look a lot less expensive and a lot less inept. I suppose that is in the logic of attrition. Trying to impose a bewegungskrieg paradigm on a war of exhaustion (ermattungskrieg) is bound to make both sides look wrongheaded. It seems to me that the Anglo-French succeeded on the Somme where Germany failed at Verdun. The Germans were able to use the peace dividend from Russia in early 1918 to try to get out from under but it wasn't enough so 'Somme strategy' methods, more and more refined did for the Germans in the end.Keith-264 (talk) 15:16, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
The germany italy and autrohungary where the allince britain france and russia where the tripple entraunt fought i mention it becuase very article on world war one is wrong —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.131.140.83 (talk) 11:33, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
Well, have a look for yourself: http://books.google.co.uk/books?hl=en&id=6XYXWDGF9JIC&dq=Prior+%26+Wilson&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=ovXdHsbJQP&sig=kJIVrhjs-kwKerYb8anGNy257RY&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result#PPP5,M1 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.21.132.227 (talk) 00:38, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
This article desperately needs citations. Can anyone help? I am trying to add where I can. The article is a top importance article given that last month it had about 60,000 hits and already has over 30,000 this month it should be a priority to fix up. AustralianRupert (talk) 05:40, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
Does anyone have any sources on the question of whether the Battle of the Somme was the main reason for the German abandonment of the region in early 1917 (apart from Terraine that is)?Keith-264 (talk) 12:43, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
The introduction to this article suggests Haig was a Field Marshall in 1915, whilst his personal article claims he did not obtain this rank until 1917. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Haig,_1st_Earl_Haig#1917 Jean-Jacques R (talk) 12:32, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
{{editsemiprotected}}
Please could someone replace 'Field Marshall' with 'General' in the last paragraph of the introduction? As stated above (and indeed in the body of this article), Haig had not attained the rank of Field Marshall at this point in time.
Haig was given this name as he never changed his tactics throughout the battle, causing thousands of soldiers' deaths.
Then one would ask what about the introduction of tanks and new artillery tactics such as the creeping barrage? All introduced to save lifes. If anyone has seen this mans diary they would also see how he attended military demonstrations of new tactics and was all for better fighting technquies.
I am removing the statement from the article--EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 06:58, 26 June 2009 (UTC) It may be a good idea to point out that trench warfare was safer than open warfare!Keith-264 (talk) 07:21, 26 June 2009 (UTC) I am reading Philpott's new book, which although a synthesis of mainly secondary sources has some merit (apart from the atrocious prose) so I expect to be able to offer sources and references to this article. Keith-264 (talk) 08:33, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
Having read Philpott's valuable but flawed (and dreadfully written) book and just finished '1916' Vol 2 I wouldn't go overboard about Rawlinson's preference for limited attacks over attempts at breaking through. It was Haig's job to think big and integrate the British effort on the Somme with the French, Russian and Italian bids to impose so much pressure on the German defences as to break them. The probability of failure on the first day needs to be considered with the net gain expected somewhere on the Western, Russian and Southern Fronts because of the magnitude and synchronisation of the attacks. Prior and Wilson condemn this because they calculate that the British didn't have enough heavy artillery to overcome such extensive defensive works but the point that perhaps made more impression on the British at the time was the difficulty in aiming their artillery. More guns in July 1916 would have meant more shells landing in the wrong place. Keith-264 (talk) 22:34, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
Should we not add an order of battle for both opposing sides into this article? If not, where does it belong? Farawayman (talk) 19:21, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
This OOB is a bit more work than I expected, especially if structured per Corps. Any inputs or additions would be appreciated - its still very much in a "Work in Progress" status. Refer Battle of the Somme: order of battle. Farawayman (talk) 20:03, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
I have removed the Newfoundland flag - as these troops officially served under the Canadian Corps. I have also added the India flag as the 2nd Indian Cavalry Division took part in the Battle of Bazentin (14 - 17 July 1916) Farawayman (talk) 22:02, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
After adding the 29th Div into the oob, I found that the Royal Newfoundland Regiment served as part of 29th Div and not as part of the Canadian Corps. I have thus re-inserted the Newfoundland flag (as a separate dominion) into the battlebox. Farawayman (talk) 14:24, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
The battle started with infantry and cavalry in man-to-man battles for the control of individual trenches...
I may not be an expert in the field of the First World War however my understanding is that the cavalry divisions were held in reserve in these types of battles for the exploitation phase that never came; the cavalrymen, who did fight did so as infantry. Now if that is the case shouldn’t this sentence be modified to fit the situation i.e. “dismounted”, “fighting on foot” etc etc
Both sides had suffered immense casualties with neither being able to claim any strategic advantage.
My understanding of this battle is that the Allied forces fought it for strategic effect and gained it – again I profess that I am no expert or even that knowledgeable on the First World War; drawing attention off the Verdun front and helping to alleviate the situation there. Does not one source imply this or is this a “myth” of the battle?--EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 10:22, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
'The Great War' by Field Marshal von Hindenburg (Ed. C Messenger) 2006 has, 'On the Somme the struggle had now been raging nearly two months. There we passed from one crisis to another. Our lines were permanently in a condition of the highest tension.' (p. 100) 'Over everyone hovered the fearful spectre of this battlefield which for desolation and horror seemed to be even worse than that of Verdun.' (p. 123) 'So it was a case of retreat on the Western Front instead of attack! It was a dreadful disappointment for the army in the west; worse, perhaps, for the public at home;(sic) and worst - as we had good reason to fear - for our allies.... The brilliant, if somewhat belated, visible result of the bloody battle, the collapse of German resistance.... What a hail of propagandist literature would now descend on and behind our lines!'(p. 135) '... I found myself compelled by the general situation ... to order the offensive at Verdun to be broken off. The battles there exhausted our forces like an open wound.' (p.121) Evidently Hindenburg saw the battles at Verdun and the Somme as part of the same struggle. On the one hand he calls the Somme indecisive and on the other gives it as the cause of the retreat to the Hindenburg Line (Siegfried Stellung). It seems to me that this was even more significant than the effect of the Brusilov Offensive. Keith-264 (talk) 13:41, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
The OH II p.555 quotes Falkenhayn (21st Aug '16) 'Beneath the enormous pressure which now rests up us we have no superfluity of strength. Every removal in one direction leads eventually to dangerous weakness in another place which may lead to our destruction if even the least adjustment in the enemy's dispositions is made.' (from German OH vol x pp. 675-676). 'The German army had been fought to a standstill and was utterly worn out.' (from Ludendorff i., p. 304). Hindenburg, 'We must save the men from a second Somme battle.' (from German OH vol xi., p. 470). 'in its results the first material battle of the World War turned to the disadvantage of the victorious (sic) Germans, for no art of the commander could give them back the trained soldiery which had been destroyed.' ('Somme' by Hans Henning Freiherr Grote p. 163). p. 556, Of less importance was the extent of the ground yielded, although it must be remembered that the retreat of the Germans early in 1917, a direct result of the losses they had sustained on the Somme, had great influence upon the future course of events.... but in Picardy during the summer and autumn of 1916 the foundations of the final victory were laid.Keith-264 (talk) 16:45, 14 November 2009 (UTC) '... the Battle of the Somme was an unquestionable Allied victory, mainly a British one, because it laid the essential foundation for the final defeat of the Germans in the field.' 'Douglas Haig The Educated Soldier' by John Terraine, p. 230. (1963, 2005)Keith-264 (talk) 20:26, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
Hi all, the images within this article need alterntive text adding. This is one of the requirements, iirc, that is looked for during the FAC process; i understand that the article is currently not up for that however its something that can be gotten out of the way rather quickly. I would do it myself however am not that good at getting a good description down.
The alt text pops up when you hover the mouse of the photo and is for people who art partially sighted etc
The below is an example of how to do it and how it looks like, this example comes from the Second World War Operation Charnwood article.
[[File:Dug-in panzer IV.jpg|right|thumb|upright=1.1|alt=A frontal view of a knocked out German tank in a hull-down position, protected by earth entrenchments.|A [[hull down]] dug-in Panzer IV of the 1/22nd Panzer Regiment, photographed near Lébisey.]]--EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 10:43, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
Altered some of the wording to make it more descriptive and changed an assertion about German defences - by the end of the battle the Germans had been driven out of much of the elaborate system they'd built since 1914 and were holding short lines of trench connected by barbed wire obstacles (see sketch maps, OH 1916 ptII and 'The Somme: The Day by Day Account' by Chris McCarthy).Keith-264 (talk) 15:57, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
Hello all. Have just read this article and think the lead (to start with) should probably be completely rewritten. At present it doesn't say where the battle was fought (a reader might not know the Somme is a river, and doesn't even say the battle was fought in France), why it was fought, who the combatants were, why Verdun is significant, why the battle itself is significant, or give any of the historiographical details. Will have a crack at it myself if no one objects. --IxK85 (talk) 22:36, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
If you look at the OH for 1917 vol1 you won't see a new campaign on the Somme after mid-December 1916. It decribes a cessation of operations during the wet weather and a resumption when the ground froze. The limiting factor for operations by the 5th and 4th armies was the timetable for the Arras Offensive, due in April. There's also a well-founded claim that the retreat to the Hindenburg Line was made necessary by the bashing the Germans got on the Somme and that it began prematurely because of these 1917 operations. The criticism of the 'small territorial gains' of the Battle needs to demonstrate that big gains were intended after the failure of the breakthrough attempt on the 1st of July or that the big gains obtained by the German retreat in early 1917 had nothing to do with the battle.Keith-264 (talk) 08:42, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
after 90 years somebody found a book saying the germans lost more men on the somme. awesome... the article says "the figure of 680.000 was discredited" but its good enough for the infobox. gogo BIAS —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.176.149.195 (talk) 22:51, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
the 613.000 entente casualties are the "official" figures. the german "offical" figures say 419.000 ( not sure ) german casualties. but we should not take the "official" figures for both sides, we should take the "low" numbers for the entente and the highest fanatasy numbers for the germans. thats how bias works... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.176.149.195 (talk) 23:16, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
why are u asking me such question ? do u want to discuss my points or do want to be funny? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.176.149.195 (talk) 01:32, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
they are not correct. not for both. biasshit. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.192.121.123 (talk) 03:47, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
i brought some arguement . talk about this arguements. allied "official" numbers and german fantasy numbers. german inflictet much more casualties on entente . so its high likly that it is the same at this battle. no other article gives such high number for germans, iam pretty sure its the highest available. are u the guy who edited the infobox ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.192.121.123 (talk) 03:52, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
ok which book do u take to say that u can see that they are accurate? take this book and tell me what this books says about allied casualties. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.176.146.174 (talk) 05:31, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
instead of list empiric reasons why its obvious that the proportions of the casualties are wrong, i ask after the primary source for the estimate of german casus. what is the number for allied casualties mentioned in the same book ?
by the way: when i clicked the link for entente casualties i found "620.000" allied casualties and "nearly 500.000" german. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.176.167.134 (talk) 00:15, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
and? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.192.121.123 (talk) 18:32, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
thx woogie —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.176.149.61 (talk) 21:40, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
he editors, u like your wrong bias numbers? can u do something now? where are the guys who edited this shit?????
ok now nobody reacts. i come to the page saying the figures are bias shit like in 100 other british articles. than another guy comes and shows u iam correct than nobody of u response...
Does anyone else think that this section could be dispensed with entirely? At the moment it's not only not about 'the state of the armies', but only about the BEF, and doesn't even mention the French or German, and the description of Haig seems little more than innuendo; '[promotion] did not always reflect competence or ability. Haig started as corps commander'. Whatever you might say about Haig's influential connections or later handling of the battle, there probably wasn't anyone obviously more qualified than him for C-in-C BEF at the outset. On top of that does an encyclopaedic article on the Somme really need references to Regan's 'Military Blunders' when there are plenty of better sources?--IxK85 (talk) 22:46, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
As it happens I've spent quite a bit of this year trying to make my mind up about the battle. On the whole I've found the British Official History an accurate description of events and by no means a travesty in its analysis. There is corroboration for this in Hindenburg and Ludendorff's memoirs. Christopher Duffy and Jack Sheldon's books add much empircal detail to the German army's ordeal. Philpott's book, though dreadfully written and poorly (if at all) edited concurs. Historigraphically there is far less in English of the French and German efforts but Foley's book and Falkenhayn's memoir make sense of German strategy for 1916 and the way that it was left in tatters at the end of the year. I'm not surprised at the anglocentric emphasis of an article written by English speakers because French and German sources are conspicuous by their absence in translation. If there is to be a prelude, I'd try to make it a survey of the state of play in early 1916 and incorporate into this the undoubted importance of the arrival of Britain's continental-sized army, its prospects and the effect that the German Verdun Offensive had on the British army's need to wait until it was ready and France and Russia's need for it to begin to exert pressure as soon as possible above the effort agreed at Chantilly. Keith-264 (talk) 10:33, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
contradicting information on this article. --205.132.248.2 (talk) 19:26, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
The original British Expeditionary Force, six divisions strong at the start of the war, had been wiped out by the battles of 1914 and 1915.
This really needs to be reworded; the point i believe the sentance is attempting to make is that the original six divisions had lost most of the regulars that they went to war with. The fact is however that the divisions were not wiped out; they stayed on the roster and served through the rest of the war - sure they were reinforced via new guys but that isnt implied by this sentance or the following.--EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 19:34, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
I am not a registered established member on this site (the new restrictions seem to defeat the romantic purpose of Wikipedia, and i fear it is the first step, but hey..) but can someone add a source to the tank site. One source i noted was the line on the 32 out of 49 tanks that made it. I recently read that in "Imperial War Museum Book of The Western Front- Malcolm Brown" so that is reliable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.26.194.27 (talk) 22:24, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
I think adding a figure of "1" for United States casualties is self-serving, as I am sure there were citizens from other countries enlisted in British/French/German armies too. The list of casualties should only be broken down by countries that "officially" took part in the battle. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 148.87.1.167 (talk) 21:42, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
Should the United Kingdom, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, India and Newfoundland all be under British Empire, as is used in the Infobox for the First world war Article? 82.1.157.16 (talk) 21:34, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
"The average casualties per division (consisting of circa 10,000 soldiers) on the British sector up until 19 November was 8,026—6,329 for the four Canadian divisions, 7,408 for the New Zealand Division, 8,133 for the 43 British divisions and 8,960 for the three Australian divisions."
I notice that the 'division' is still 10,000 instead of about 18,000* men and that the loss figures have no citation. Comments?Keith-264 (talk) 13:43, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
The article suggests that Newfoundland observes a memorial service on the Sunday closest to 1 July. While that was, for some time, the practice, for about a decade, now, Newfoundland has returned to holding a memorial service at 11:00 a.m. on 1 July, regardless of the calendar day of the week. The fact that the day is also Canada Day no longer seems to present a problem. The losses commemorated occurred long before Newfoundland became part of Canada.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.162.27.40 (talk) 02:04, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
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