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I nominated the image of the "Obama Joker Poster" (not the article on it) for deletion. If you are interested please check out Wikipedia:Files for deletion/2009 October 4.Borock (talk) 15:54, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
The article says Obama is the third president from Illinois.
I embellished that a bit by mentioning that the first two were Lincoln and Reagan (interesting facts vis-a-vis Obama). Reagan was elected as a Californian, but was born in Illinois (Tampico). Lincoln was elected as an Illinoisan, but was born in Kentucky.
User DKqwerty removed my edit, explaining that since Lincoln wasn't born in Illinois, he shouldn't be considered as being a president from Illinois. Yeah, OK. Ahem - Obama was born in Hawaii - why is the article saying that HE is a president from Illinois then? Further - Lincoln, like Obama, was a US Senator from Illinois when he was elected!
Since there have been no presidents both born in Illinois and elected out of Illinois, maybe there has been NO president from Illinois!
Given that, what does 'third president from Illinois' mean?
Manburger 486 (talk) 22:10, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
Can we get an agreement not to edit war over any claim about being from Illinois, and to leave it out until there is consensus? The article was fully protected due to this squabbling, which is not really tenable. Thanks. Wikidemon (talk) 03:55, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
By the way, Democraplypse, I'm not sure what you're talking about. Lincoln was living in Springfield, IL when he was elected. Tad Lincoln (talk) 03:59, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
Curious. In his different books he mentions travel to Pakistan during his College years and that helped him understand that part of the world. Why no mention in Wiki article? Jrcrin001 (talk) 15:57, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
Closing this per WP:NOTFORUM and WP:SOAP |
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Soooo…… fantastic!!! A feature article from 2004!!! And Who in 2004 knowed that he would be a American President? A miracle!!! --TBG (talk) 11:58, 7 October 2009 (UTC) |
President Barack Obama just won the Nobel Peace Prize --Josecarlos1991 (talk) 09:18, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
{editprotectedarticle} The article says that he is only the second president to receive the Nobel Peace Prize. He is actually the fourth after: Theodore Roosevelt, Woodrow Wilson, and Jimmy Carter. {/editprotectedarticle} —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.242.204.101 (talk) 09:52, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
"Most political experts agree that Obama is likely to win all the peace prizes for the years 2009-2017." are there any sources for this? it seems highly unlikely —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.227.89.35 (talk) 13:08, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
I created this article a short while back and it is already seeing Obama related vandalism. Would help if more people added it to their watchlist and also helped edit/expand it. Cheers. Abecedare (talk) 12:37, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
I'm going to be a bit nitpicky, but since it concerns the lead section of a featured article, I hope you'll forgive me. The lead contains the following sentence: "His victory from a crowded field in the March 2004 Democratic primary raised his visibility." What I'm wondering is, how exactly does "victory" come "from a crowded field"? Of course, he wasn't elected solely by the crowd in the field, so there goes one possible meaning. I assume the field had not been causing him some inconvenience from which he finally emerged victorious. So I'm not exactly sure what was intended by this phrase. The only source I found was a mirror of this article. My guess is that it's either his victory speech or his victory per se that raised his visibility. If it's the former beaing meant, then it's "his victory speech", not just "his victory", that came "from" (or, rather, occurred in) the field. If it's the latter, then the field seems irrelevant without some elaboration. Cosmic Latte (talk) 16:37, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
Per WP:SOAP and WP:NOTFORUM: no known direction for this thread |
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PAVLOV'S EXPERIMENT The original and most famous example of classical conditioning involved the salivary conditioning of Pavlov's dogs. During his research on the physiology of digestion in dogs, Pavlov noticed that, rather than simply salivating in the presence of meat powder (an innate response to food that he called the unconditioned response), the dogs began to salivate in the presence of the lab technician who normally fed them. Pavlov called these psychic secretions. From this observation he predicted that, if a particular stimulus in the dog’s surroundings were present when the dog was presented with meat powder, then this stimulus would become associated with food and cause salivation on its own. In his initial experiment, Pavlov used a metronome to call the dogs to their food and, after a few repetitions, the dogs started to salivate in response to the metronome. Thus, a neutral stimulus (metronome) became a conditioned stimulus (CS) as a result of consistent pairing with the unconditioned stimulus (US - meat powder in this example). Pavlov referred to this learned relationship as a conditional reflex (now called conditioned response). Classical conditioning- A type of learning in which an organism comes to associate stimuli, neutral stimulus that signals an unconditional stimulus (US) begins to produce a response that anticipates and prepares for the unconditioned stimulus. It is also called Pavlovian or respondent conditioning. conclusion: this means that if u ring bells in the ear of a dog, after making him listen to the bells before feeding him for about a month, he starts actually feeling hungry when he listens to the bells. first they made the people believe that osama is dangerous(producing fear that results in admitting superiority of the person due to his uncontrollable nature.) then dragged obama to the front for president, notice that obama and osama sound similar to the brain, lets consider obama and osama as ringing bells, its means obama also starts producing the same effects deep in the unconscious without letting the conscious realize, so he was elected & he is leading. plus keeping in view the same concept of classical conditioning it could also be derived that people deep inside believe that obama is going to save them from osama. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.154.71.60 (talk) 18:18, 9 October 2009 (UTC) |
Closing this per WP:NOTFORUM and WP:SOAP |
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Why was he awarded the Nobel peace prize? What did he do? I am very confused please tell me. - BennyK95 - Talk 17:36, October 9 2009 (UTC)
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In the Family and personal life section of the article there is a black and white photo of the Barack Obama and his wife Michelle. That photo seems out of place with all of the color photos that are in the article. Is there a color version of that photo or can a similar color be put in its place? SMP0328. (talk) 22:01, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
Per WP:SOAP and WP:NOTFORUM:No known direction for this thread |
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This article is ridiculously white-washed; it is a real embarrassment for Wikipedia as a whole I think. It contains no mention of either Bill Ayers or Jeremiah Wright, nor does it contain anything about Obama failing to bring the Olympics to Chicago. Now, on top of that, there isn't a single thing in here about the fact that numerous commentators and political scientists on every end of the political spectrum are calling the 2009 Nobel Peace Prize he is supposed to be receiving "unwarranted." I think that mention of this should be placed in the article immediately. Chrismc1991 (talk) 21:10, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
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I just notice that the Time Persons of the Year template is not showing. So, I sort of investigated and find that this page has too many templates. The preview page even says "Warning: Template include size is too large. Some templates will not be included." I think something should be done, like cut down the number of template used or merge some into one.—Chris!c/t 22:35, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
I repeat what I said at WP:AN: Looking for a technical fix for this is really asking for special dispensation to be made for bad articles. When it comes to navigation templates this article is bad. The same list of cabinet officers is given three times in three separate navigation templates, for example. And that's far from the only duplication. The succession boxes are duplicated, too. Fix the poor quality of the article, and the technical limitations won't be an issue. Uncle G (talk) 06:30, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
Closing this per WP:NOTFORUM and WP:SOAP |
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http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/europe/10/02/olympics.2016/index.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.97.46.13 (talk) 20:07, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
Excellent our plan is working!!! muhahah, the world will only know of obamas political gains and not his losses. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.227.59.134 (talk) 16:35, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
Not all people who agree with certain historical aspects of this vote R.....or even a D for that matter. hence some may not even be American. The IOC decision was a great conversation peace between my friend in Romania(who doesn't vote here) and myself(who protests voting R...and D).... The point is if you only post political accomplishments, future anthropology will see a person flawless and almost of high stature. This is far from the truth. Its historical fact he lost the bid. Its also historical fact that this had a large political implications on the part of Chicago.... last I checked his profession is politics. So even if it makes you fell uncomfortable about his loss, It still happened. Because "you" feel its not relevant to history doesn't mean you erase form history. When an encyclopedia contains information not relevant to your research... you skip reading that part. its up to the user. It is data and information plan and simple, And like it or not its a topic of political debate, and that's part of his history. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.227.59.134 (talk) 14:28, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
If you don't like the fact he went to lobby for it...and failed to get the award. then skip that part. let others read it. The fact that this is even an issue that's being discussed so much proves its a fact of some level of importance... the debate is not wiki worthy.. but the fact that he went is because there is a debate. a hundred years form now someone will say Obama lost his bid for Chicago... how would average Joe be able to prove or disprove him(or claiming to spread false right-wing FUD).... simple ..wiki and cite that Obama lobbied and lost the IOC nomination. showing only the facts that are relevant to your interests does not make a fare article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikiappend (talk • contribs) 17:35, 12 October 2009 (UTC) |
Today I've seen several times the neutrality warning at the top of the article. But it has been removed quickly all times. My question is why? I mean that without a clear discussion it is only an attack from the removers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.0.91.203 (talk) 17:28, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
Just a heads-up: Please remember that the word "president" should be capitilized when used as a person's title (e.g., "President Obama"), but not as a reference to the position that the person holds (e.g., "Obama is the president of the U.S."). I'm noting this only because it's so common to treat words like "president" as proper nouns no matter what, while a whole slew of university-level sources (e.g., ), and even Wikipedia's own Manual of Style, advise against this practice. Cosmic Latte (talk) 16:42, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
Per MOS:BIO, Obama's ethnicity does not belong in the introductory sentence. This has been discussed before, for instance here, where it was decided that discussing his ethnicity after the introductory sentence was better. The most recent FA version doesn't contain it in the first sentence.--Cúchullain t/c 20:29, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) This is what it said before I deleted it; even at that, it's not in the first paragraph of the lead, and I still don't believe it belongs in the lead at all.
In all fairness, if you go back a few months in this article, you'll see that some attempt was made to work in Obama's ethnicity without the blatant undue weigh in this version, for example. Radiopathy •talk• 20:45, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
I am in no way disagreeing with anyone's input on this article about noting Obama's race in the first sentence. However, considering the history of the black race, the moment he was elected president was a huge stepping stone. Although at the same time, he is not fully "African American". He is mulatto (black and white). Therefore if he is going to be introduced as a certain race, it should be correct; just because he is half black, does not mean that he is our first African American president! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Browncc (talk • contribs) 01:18, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
Id like to re-open the discussion of refering to Obama as "African-American" in the first sentence. Its misleading to refer to Obama as African American. He should either be refered to as English-American, Kenyan-American or nothing at all. Its pretty common knowledge that African-American refers to blacks from slave times. By calling him African-American you are essientially saying descendents of slaves dont have a culture. Even if its used in a racial context, obama is biracial and the term ignores his white side. If anyone agrees please let me know.Impactplayer (talk) 21:34, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
The Nobel Peace Prize was granted to Obama
"...for a newer peace initiative on Obama's part than had been recognized by past Nobel Prize awards"
- Can anyone tell me what this "newer peace initiative" is please. Otherwise, I think it should be reworded. Even if you can think of something it should at least be explained because that is way way too vague. JohnHistory (talk) 05:01, 11 October 2009 (UTC)JohnHistory
-Also, Wikidemon, aside from your not wanting to include any criticism which was noteworthy, I think you are wrong to say we should wait to see what happens to then explain why he got an award. That is a very strange idea. He got the award, not the future him but him now. He could drop a nuclear bomb on Mecca and still be a Nobel Peace Prize winner. He got it for something, or because of something (politics) waiting around to see if he does something "peaceful" in the future cannot be the reason for his being awarded something in the past anymore then it could be a reason for him not to be awarded it. I mean that's a kind of "fill in the blank" approach to this that really can't hold water. He got the award for something real or imaginary predicated on the here and now. Political pressure, sure, but not some intangible future accomplishment. JohnHistory (talk) 01:57, 13 October 2009 (UTC)JohnHistory
There was a link, now deleted, from this article to the article Black Nobel Prize laureates, a similar link appearing (in a "See also" section) in the articles of all other eleven black Nobel Prize laureates. Is there a justifiable reason why this link was removed?11:37, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
I have added a brief bit about the Nobel selection committee's public defense of the award to Obama, which several news sources have reported as a "rare" move or an "extremely rare" event, which adds to its notability. Also, Obama's quote was a bit too much text for a summary presentation in a encyclopedia. OK for a journal, but any reader can easily access the Wikilink to the main article. So, in an attempt to keep the article length manageable, and to ensure free space for the remaining three years of his term and the rest of his life, I removed only the quote. It really doesn't add anything that isn't already there, namely that is was a surprise to him and many others. QueenofBattle (talk) 15:40, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
I added a few words about the Nobel to the lead, but was reverted because "the fuller details are below". This is true, but it's equally true in regards to the presidential primaries and the presidential election. The primaries and election are qualified in the lead; they're given meaning with brief notes that he won the primaries because he defeated Clinton (as opposed to an anonymous opponent to be mentioned later in the article) and won the election because he defeated McCain. So why not note that he won the Nobel because he has promoted "worldwide diplomacy and cooperation" (as opposed to some mysterious reason to be saved for later)? But the fact that "the fuller details are below" is the reason why I made that particular addition in the first place. Later, it is stated that he was recognized "for his extraordinary efforts to strengthen international diplomacy and cooperation between peoples". I tried to summarize this in the lead by saying he was honoured "for his promotion of worldwide diplomacy and cooperation." Without this sort of summary, and without prior knowledge of why he won, I would feel left in suspense, and the lead isn't really supposed to have that effect. But I think that the few words I inserted add considerably to the lead, because they provide the first glimpse of Obama-as-president. Up to that sentence, the lead has been about Obama's life up to his inauguration, and it leaves us with some uncertainty about his nature as president. And I strongly disagree that the addition damages the brevity of a lead that is so succinct (relative to other four-paragraph leads) in the first place. What do others think? Cosmic Latte (talk) 02:05, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
A simple example of original synthesis:
On October 9, 2009, Obama was awarded the 2009 Nobel Peace Prize for his promotion of worldwide diplomacy and cooperation.
Although no conclusion is drawn and both facts areone fact is true, the sentence implies that the Peace Prize was awarded for promoting of diplomacy and cooperation throughout the world, vice the effort to strengthen international diplomacy and cooperation between peoples. If no reliable source has combinedpublished the material in this way, it constitutes original research.
Comparisons can be highly subjective, and so it is better to look at the debates in question and see what policies were cited and make an argument based on how they apply to the current debate than just say "x was
keptincluded so this should be too". [emphasis added]]
The lead section should briefly summarize the most important points covered in an article in such a way that it can stand on its own as a concise version of the article.
which the lede, as is, does do, and
notable material should neither be suppressed nor allowed to overwhelm : always pay scrupulous attention to reliable sources.
As I noted in my point 3., directly quoting just the first sentence of the committee's citation leaves out important detail, while quoting the whole citation would "overwhelm".
I found it interesting that Obama is not listed as "biracial" or even "multi-racial" (it's two races which is 'Bi" right?) at the bottom, and instead listed as "African -American". I understand the "one drop rule", but are we going to propagate and perpetuate that here on wikipedia in the 21st century? It seems that's exactly what we are doing. Biracial, or whatever you want to call it is a clear designation in many places in our society, and a noteworthy group for it's relatively small numbers. I think choosing one half over the other, has some serious pitfalls in its logic. Furthermore, what does african american really mean, when Obama has not even a single blood relative of african american lineage. Without getting into the cultural issues too much, lets remember Obama was raised by whites, and the amount of "black" people in hawaii is very small. I recall when people early on were challenging, a persistent theme in his early career in Chicago as well, Obama's "blackness" on these very grounds. It seems that "blackness" in regards to Obama is some test you can pass, or you can fail as deemed by other black people. That can't be a real designation then, because ethnicity is not something you can fail at. Thus, I think listing Obama as "biracial" is the only way to honestly express both his genetics, and also his background. I would hate to think that Jim Crow like logic would be furthered on wikipedia, noting that even then Obama would not posses "one drop" of african american blood. JohnHistory (talk) 21:45, 13 October 2009 (UTC)JohnHistory
Topic has been done to death in the past; most reliable sources identify Obama as African-American, and he self-identifies as such as well. This topic being dredged up for the umpteenth time...and by one of the primary agitators this spring during the wordnetdaily invasion...really serves little purpose. Tarc (talk) 23:42, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
Here is what the FAQ was referencing, the African American Article which clearly shows that he should be listed as both Mixed Race / Biracial and African American. Let's not play politics, or be prejudiced in this topic please. It has a way of creeping into this. "By the 1980s, parents of mixed-race children (and adults of mixed-race ancestry) began to organize and lobby for the ability to show more than one ethnic category on Census and other legal forms. They refused to be put into just one category. When the U.S. government proposed the addition of the category of "bi-racial" or "multiracial" in 1988, the response from the general public was mostly negative. Some African-American organizations and political leaders, such as Senator Diane Watson and Representative Augustus Hawkins, were particularly vocal in their rejection of the category. They feared a loss in political and economic power if African Americans abandoned their one category. This reaction is characterized as "historical irony" by Daniel (2002). The African-American self-designation had been a response to the one-drop rule, but then people resisted the chance to claim their multiple heritages. At the bottom was a desire not to lose political power of the larger group. Whereas before people resisted being characterized as one group regardless of ranges of ancestry, now some of their own were trying to keep them in the same group.[129] In recent decades, the multicultural aspect of the United States has continued to expand, in part due to new waves of immigration from Asia, Central and South America, and Africa. Although the terms mixed-race, biracial, and multiracial are increasingly used, it remains common for those who possess visible traits of black heritage to identify or be identified as blacks or African Americans. For example, 55% of European Americans classify President Barack Obama as biracial when they are told that he has a white mother, while 66% of African Americans consider him black.[130] Obama describes himself as black[131] and African American, using both terms interchangeably.[132] Because of that and general conventions, he is generally considered to be African American.[133] Obviously he is in fact both African-American and bi-racial; these are not exclusive categories." (African American) - JohnHistory
"By the 1980s, parents of mixed-race children (and adults of mixed-race ancestry) began to organize and lobby for the ability to show more than one ethnic category on Census and other legal forms. They refused to be put into just one category. When the U.S. government proposed the addition of the category of "bi-racial" or "multiracial" in 1988, the response from the general public was mostly negative. Some African-American organizations and political leaders, such as Senator Diane Watson and Representative Augustus Hawkins, were particularly vocal in their rejection of the category. They feared a loss in political and economic power if African Americans abandoned their one category. This reaction is characterized as "historical irony" by Daniel (2002). The African-American self-designation had been a response to the one-drop rule, but then people resisted the chance to claim their multiple heritages. At the bottom was a desire not to lose political power of the larger group. Whereas before people resisted being characterized as one group regardless of ranges of ancestry, now some of their own were trying to keep them in the same group.[129] In recent decades, the multicultural aspect of the United States has continued to expand, in part due to new waves of immigration from Asia, Central and South America, and Africa. Although the terms mixed-race, biracial, and multiracial are increasingly used, it remains common for those who possess visible traits of black heritage to identify or be identified as blacks or African Americans. For example, 55% of European Americans classify President Barack Obama as biracial when they are told that he has a white mother, while 66% of African Americans consider him black.[130] Obama describes himself as black[131] and African American, using both terms interchangeably.[132] Because of that and general conventions, he is generally considered to be African American.[133] Obviously he is in fact both African-American and bi-racial; these are not exclusive categories." JohnHistory (talk) 22:34, 14 October 2009 (UTC)JohnHistory
- So, why are we excluding it again? Isn't he "obviously" biracial? JohnHistory (talk) 22:54, 14 October 2009 (UTC)JohnHistory
I don't know what part of my "Wikipedia reflects what reliable sources have to say" response you find to be confusing, or what part of;
you find confusing, or what part of guyzero's "You are totally correct that he is multiethnic, but because RS's don't commonly refer to him as "The first multiethnic president", etc. then neither do we." response you find confusing. I and other editors have answered your concern, and pointed to you to FAQ A2, which also addresses this question. Barack Obama actually being bi-racial or multi-racial has precisely zero bearing on the matter at hand, which is the phrase "first African-American president" in the lead.
Being the "first" African-American to accomplish a particular feat is something that our society tends think is an important milestone, whether it is Jackie Robinson breaking baseball's color barrier or Darine Stern providing fap material to minorities, that is how the media and society in general recognize it. If you have a beef with that, the Wikipedia is not the place to crusade from. Tarc (talk) 04:06, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
Not only does his multiracial background take up a large portion of the article, but it was the major theme in at least one if not both of his books, and discussed so widely everyone knows it. I'm deeply troubled over your assessment and think you need to rethink this. JohnHistory (talk) 04:58, 15 October 2009 (UTC)JohnHistory Remember, this is an officially recognized group of people, who fought to be recognized as such, that you are saying are not important, or relevant. That's a shocking belief to have Tarc. Mind blowing. They should be recognized, and they are important! JohnHistory (talk) 05:06, 15 October 2009 (UTC)JohnHistory
You are in essence refuting an entire section of the article, and in his "early years" it explicitly states that he is multiracial. Thus, your only real argument is your fallback being multiracial is not "important" or "relevant", which I hope you might change your mind about given the relatively small number of people who fit such a category, and the various struggles both culturally and legally that they have and do endure. JohnHistory (talk) 05:26, 15 October 2009 (UTC)JohnHistory
TL;DR. WP:RS applies, WP:BLP applies - Obama self-defines as Black/African-American, reliable sources in wide preponderance say he's Black/African-American. See the FAQ. Until you can change consensus on Wikipedia policies, we'll run with what we have now, which is far more closely, if not perfectly, aligned with some decent fact based writing. We don't change world policy here, we write big term papers by consensus. Term papers, Reports, not Thesis Papers, in which a new Idea can be evinced using facts and Original Research and Synthesis. As such, we rely on what others say, and they say Black. Go change Obama's mind, go change the media's mind, America's mind, the Media's mind, and then we can change the article. This has been covered more often than is really necessary. And please read WP:SOAPBOX and WP:FORUM. ... we really need a WP:SCREED as well. ThuranX (talk) 05:51, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
How short our memories can become. This article by Time calls Obama biracial numerous times, and even cites african americans challenging his blackness and then swishes and swashes and shows how this not what we are for to debate or decide.. let's just state, as is already in the article, the facts and include him being african american and multiracial. We can't blow in the collective wind on an encyclopedia as this article shows many people were at the time, precisely due to the fact that he was just multiracial guy then and not the great Obama. JohnHistory (talk) 07:31, 15 October 2009 (UTC)JohnHistory http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1584736,00.html
You are violating SOAPBOX/FORUM. You are expounding on a personal opinion of American society's issues with race here. You have to reply to yourself to make the conversation keep going. You admit already that 'biracial' is used in the article with regard to Obama, invalidating your claim that we don't use it and we should. This is nothing but someone bloviating endlessly about their views on why the world sucks. We get it, we just don't care to hear your lectures on why people suck for not agreeing with you. Your complaints about the article are by your own admission not problems. You like to read your own words. Please get a blog at blogspot, or livejournal, friendster, facebook, myspace, or buy a domain name for yourself. This isnt' the place for you to do what you're doing. ThuranX (talk) 07:37, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
Here I think this is a good article on the subject that even relates to the media and is post Obama winning the presidency. Or should I just not try to have a well informed and sourced discussion to look at over the next days and debate. It's not like I'm editing the article, or not trying to make good points despite Thuranx somewhat angry response, that responded to nothing. Thoranx, I was talking about the intro. Here read this, and tell me if you think it is reasonable. JohnHistory (talk) 07:45, 15 October 2009 (UTC)JohnHistory http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09034/946461-44.stm
I really think that the above article makes so many totally logical and valid points, and I hope all interested will read it. The media shaping obama as black is part of it, as well as Obama's embracement of being biracial (not just black) on a personal level and various people of mixed background and how important they are to keep in mind when we make such sweeping generalizations about race. Remember Obama does not think he is not multiracial, he just has felt like people perceive him as being only black. That is a big difference. I look forward to coming here tomorrow so that we can hash this out some more. JohnHistory (talk) 07:52, 15 October 2009 (UTC)JohnHistory -And, ThuranX, what you said is the problem. he is already cited as dealing with being multiracial, and having a multiracial background, yet it is not allowed in the intro, that's the problem. Maybe you could do a little more reading before commenting next time. All the best. JohnHistory (talk) 07:54, 15 October 2009 (UTC)JohnHistory
(EC)That article is of no relevance to Obama, it's about others who do self-identify as biracial, and their identity ideas, couched in the candidacy of Obama. Big deal. It's good for the biracial attitudes in america article, nto this one. His biracial nature's not in the intro because it's not that important - it's in the article because it's true, but we aren't giving it the WP:UNDUE weight you insist it's worth. Consensus doesn't seem to have changed on that, despite your obnoxious wall of text behavior, because editors and arguments, not output, is what forms consensus. Simply put, we give the matter a fair coverage in the article - numerous reliable sources call him the first black president, so we call him that, in the intro, where the weight of sources backs up our inclusion. Some articles discuss his biracial heritage, and our article covers that. This is simple stuff, seen with the eye of someone writing an article. But if you're going to look at it with the eyes of a political correctness warrior, you're not ever going to understand the policy matters going on here relative to writing a wikipedia article. ThuranX (talk) 08:10, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
I really have little else to say on this, as as far as I am concerned it is a settled matter. But to our esteemed JohnHistory, it would be in your best interests to rethink the places where you call other editors racists. i.e. "Again, I find this level of, I don't know how else to say it but racism, to be shocking. What gives you the right to deny people of mixed race any relevance?" Tarc (talk) 12:01, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
I'll be back in many hours, but Trac I stand by 100% my statements to you, and you should be the one rethinking comment like being "multiracial" is not "important" or "relevant" , not me. As far as ThuranX, can someone please tell me what he is saying exactly? It seems to be very confusing, other then that biracial people do not deserve to be noted, which you Tarc, to my great offense, seem to agree with. Perhaps the lack of mixed race people in this country are the reason you can get away with saying such racist comments about them, and then turn around and accuse me of some wrong doing when I simply want to acknowledge their existence, Tarc. I mean, is not the denial of a whole minority of people based on them not being "important" enough to use your own words Tarc, a sort of philosophical genocide to society? JohnHistory (talk) 13:05, 15 October 2009 (UTC)JohnHistory
Closing this per FAQ Q5/A5 & WP:NOTAFORUM |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Should also include Kenyan as a former nationality in the infobox, as he was a dual-citizen up until his 23rd birthday. Just sayin'. --71.13.223.188 (talk) 00:12, 15 October 2009 (UTC)the end |
If u look at the Barack Obama article u will see a very long scroll bar. Once u scroll down to about the middle of the scroll bar the article ends, and then u hav a list of over 200 references. im just suggesting, y not add one of those "show/hide" menu options? it would make it seem less cluttered at the bottom with all of those references. --Mark0528 (talk) 21:03, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
I would add that if some well-tested template exists for dealing with the situation of articles with many footnotes, I would be happy to use it. I am not aware of one, but there are many MediaWiki corners that I do not know. We should not innovate wildly on what has been the most read article on Wikipedia (dunno if it is right now, but I'm sure it's near the top). The place to test an experimental feature is on some comparatively less active (and less actively modified) article... which might well have happened, I'd be happy to learn about the knowledge gained there. LotLE×talk 21:33, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
well first of all, any person reading this article that has any intelligence would know that if they were to print it out, and wanted the footnotes to show up, they would know that all they had to do was click the "show" button. For the second thing, again, all u would hav to do is click "show". Third, do u want to rephrase that? in more simpler terms? and lastly, again, its as simple as clicking a button, which im estimating would add an estimated 2 seconds to reach the footnotes? i have an example, which while it isnt used for footnotes, i dont see y it cant be used for them. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncharted_2#Reception Ignore the content thats it being used on. My point is to show an example of the "show/hide" button that u would hav to click to be shown the content. It's on the right where it says "Reception"--Mark0528 (talk) 21:43, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
quoting this guy (who is on this talk page under the Nobel Peace Prize section towards the bottom) "It may be brought to AfD, but there's much too much info to squeeze it all into this already packed article. Even the current section is likely too much (after all, we've still got 3-7 years of presidency to go, plus post-presidency). Joshdboz (talk) 13:35, 9 October 2009 (UTC)" the part im referring to is when he says "after all we've still got 3-7 years of presidency to go, plus post presidency". meaning we could afford the space seeing as how HALF THE ARTICLE is references. and just because you havent seen it done on other major articles, doesnt mean we shouldnt start it with this one, although i admit i havent seen it done on any other articles either. this one it seems to be kind of essential though, because imagine an article possibly 4-5 times this long? just based on his next 3-7 years as president. --Mark0528 (talk) 22:10, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
ah ok. i understand your reasoning now. but hey, theres no harm done in tossing out an idea? --Mark0528 (talk) 22:37, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
While I definitely strongly oppose some experimental and fragile technical "fix", I think the regular work of editing is very relevant. In particular, without having carefully reviewed it myself, I strongly suspect that we have a large number of mostly redundant references. A source we use in one section might be perfectly adequate to support a fact we state in a different section. As often as that is the case, we can remove one of the references, and just refer to it in both places. This takes some real editorial work, but I would not be at all surprised if such work could eliminate 1/3 or even 1/2 of the references as redundant, while still keeping the article well compliant with WP:RS and WP:CITE. This cleanup can, of course, be done incrementally by as many editors who want to help. LotLE×talk 23:32, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
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