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This is an archive of past discussions about Anti-Croat sentiment. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
With the nation-building process in mid-19th century, first Croatian-Serbian tension appeared. Serbian minister Ilija Garašanin's Načertanije (1844)[1]: 3 claimed lands that were inhabited by Bulgarians, Macedonians, Albanians, Montenegrins, Bosnians, Hungarians and Croats were part of Serbia.[1]: 3 Garašanin's plan also includes methods of spreading Serbian influence in the claimed lands.[1]: 3–4 He proposed ways to influence Croats, who Garašanin regarded as "Serbs of Catholic faith".[1]: 3 This plan considered surrounding peoples to be devoid of national consciousness.[1]: 3–4 [2]: 91 Vuk Karadžić in the 1850s then denied the existence of Croatians and Croatian language, counting them as "Catholic Serbs". Croatia was at the time a kingdom in Habsburg Monarchy, with Dalmatia and Istria being separate Habsburg Crown lands. Ante Starčević, head of the Croatian Party of Rights, proved that Croats and Croatia do exist and reciprocated, denying Serbia.[citation needed] After Austro-Hungary occupied Bosnia and Herzegovina in 1878 and Serbia gained its independence from Ottoman Empire, Croatian and Serbian relations deteriorated as both sides had pretensions on Bosnia and Herzegovina. In 1902 there was a reprinted article written by Serb Nikola Stojanović that was published in the publication of the Serbian Independent Party from Zagreb titled Do istrage vaše ili naše (Till the Investigation, ours or yours) in which denying of the existence of Croat nation as well as forecasting the result of the "inevitable" Serbian-Croatian conflict occurred.
That combat has to be led till the destruction, either ours or yours. One side must succumb. That side will be Croatians, due to their minority, geographical position, mingling with Serbs and because the process of evolution means Serbhood is equal to progress.[3]
— Nikola Stojanović, Srbobran, 10.08.1902.
...in no particular order.
Saying that anti-Croat sentiment is present among some Serbs is definitely plausible, of course, but should not rely on a Croatian government source. I'd propose e.g. this (see pp. 34-59), which is not only more neutral but provides much more information backed with hard data.
Instances of anti-Croat sentiment described in the first section aren't really "first historical instances of anti-Croat sentiment". Since the article already mentions the infamous saying ("Save us, oh Lord, from the plague and Croats!"), it should properly attribute it (see Thirty Years' War and, in particular, Croats (military unit)). Now that might be the first ever instance of anti-Croat sentiment - but I still would not claim such a thing without a source that says so.
The Dubrovnik flyer is a very bad example of anti-Croat sentiment: it invites Croats to "cooperate with the YPA in the common struggle". (That is not something Chetniks would have ever done.) I'd remove it.
Šešelj is given prominent mention. I don't see why his views would be especially important, particularly without investigating how widespread they are in Serbia (now that would be much more relevant!).
The Bob Dylan example is weak and should be left out. Dylan merely named the Croats and the Serbs as archetypal adversaries; the rest of the "controversy" is due to people reading too much into this.
It is also unclear why the fact that an unnamed author ascribes "killer mentality" to the Croats would be of any importance.
The article is "well, OK" generally but could be made much tighter by eliminating irrelevant examples and focusing more on general sentiment rather than isolated incidents. For example, the fact that, according to the source I mentioned above, only 43% of Serbs would accept a Croat as a neighbor, is much more important in this aspect than what some random guy wrote in a book. GregorB (talk) 11:52, 26 December 2015 (UTC)
I do not contest that some people in Italy might have anti-Croat sentiments (as well some people in Croatia might have an an anti-Italian one), but an article should be written based on sources, reliable and relevant. For what I can see, there is in the lead a strong statement about current anti-Croat sentiments in Italy. This statement is "based" in the lead on two sources: one stating that in the XIX century (yes about 150 years ago) this sentiment existed in Italy and the second on an article edited by an obscure extreme right-wing Italian group. Clearly, this is not sufficient to say that today there are in Italy anti-Croat sentiments (indeed, it's not true). Silvio1973 (talk) 10:07, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
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I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Anti-Croat sentiment's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "auto":
{{cite document}}
: Unknown parameter |archivedate=
ignored (help); Unknown parameter |archiveurl=
ignored (help); Unknown parameter |deadurl=
ignored (help); Unknown parameter |url=
ignored (help){{cite web}}
: Unknown parameter |deadurl=
ignored (|url-status=
suggested) (help)Reference named "auto1":
Reference named "Cresciani_ClashOfCivilisations":
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 04:12, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
Where this project is going? Instead of improving the existing articles, more and more "unconventional" (this is certainly one of those) articles are getting added. Correct me if I am wrong, but I doubt an article like this would find room in a traditional encyclopedia. It is biased, full of OR, breaching core policies and honestly does not rend any service except to a small group of users willing for some reason the article to exist. Even the title of the article is actually OR. I do not discuss the actual materiality of some facts listed in the article, but from this to have an article on its own there is a long jump. Silvio1973 (talk) 08:57, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
Almost every "anti-____ sentiment" article is very much OR and POV. There is some content here which might fit in the topic:
{{cite journal}}
: Invalid |ref=harv
(help){{cite book}}
: Invalid |ref=harv
(help)Tzowu (talk) 12:36, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
Well, IMHO it's a mistake. If we follow this logic, hundreds (thousands?) of articles of this kind could be written. Each country or ethnic group has been at some point of its history the object of an "anti-sentiment". Is this one of the objective of this project? Silvio1973 (talk) 18:57, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
{{cite journal}}
: Invalid |ref=harv
(help){{cite book}}
: Invalid |ref=harv
(help)David Bruce Macdonald's Balkan Holocausts
Stariradio, let's try to move this thing forward. I do not contest in the slightest the actual legitimacy of the facts listed in the article, but the legitimacy of the article. Let's see if I can make myself clear. You cannot compare Anti-Croat sentiment with Anti-Semitism. There is a clear issue of mutual antipathy between Serbia and Croatia. This is a fact. But it's a very, very local fact and does not encompass anything of global. This page was even describing that today Italians discriminate Croats because of Irredentism. Stariradio, do you realize that 90% of Italians do not have any idea that Zadar was Italian between the last two wars? However, if you want this page to exist, at least try to take care of it. Other users cannot do this job. Silvio1973 (talk) 19:05, 22 September 2016 (UTC)
The article should be deleted. It is pure propaganda Fabricedeldongo (talk) 23:02, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
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