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See [], and particularly []. Form many historiagraphers, Rothschild was the family where Maria Schicklgruber was a servant and the father of Alois Hitler was Baron Rothschild. Rothschild was an important Jewish family of bankers, that lived in Germany. The article of Adolf Hitler refers to this event. Hiltler's politic oppositors probably have taken the name of the Jewish family, they accused Hitler to be part. XXX
Any Rothschild relation is nonsense. According to those who claim a Jewish descent (Hans Frank) the supposed Jewish landlords of Miss Schicklgruber were called Frankenberger. The Rothschild family originated from Frankfurt and moved from there as bankers to other capitals, certainly not to a town like Graz. Str1977 23:06, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
Yep, looks good. Well done to all. One quibble. :-) Did the Third Reich 'collapse' or was it 'destroyed'? "The Third Reich which he proclaimed would last a thousand years had collapsed in just twelve." Michael Dorosh 22:45, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
It is very strange that, while the article emphasizes his role in the German state, it downgrades his Austrianness to a mere birhtplace. It is non-sense.
Austria not only produced great people, but also a devil like Hitler. Like every other nation/country it has both sides.
It should be clear in the article that he is an Austrian who rose to become a German chancellor.
Now that we have an almost-adequate page on Old Shatterhand, I think that it is appropriate (and you might also if you bother to read the "Old Shatterhand" article and the reference I added) that you find a way to add some brief reference to it on mien Führer's article as it clearly had a notable effect on his world view and mannerisms. Heil the admin bit set on certain Wikipedia accounts! Heil Wikipedia! -- Pinktulip 10:37, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
While you are at it, you might want to include his obsession with German victory in the War of 1870-71 as described in that same reference. It is merely an observation about almost anyone concerned about German nationalism at that point, but again, it gets the reader farther into his head. That idealized view of war was clearly the image he later got his nation to fall in love with. It probably helped with morale and, synergistically, with the effectiveness of blitzkrieg in the early phases of the War. -- 209.234.96.194 00:06, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
Has this been talked about yet? If so I don't see it. I made the change because fascist is more precise to characterize the Hitler regime, and its inclusive of one that is totalitarian. A fascist regime is necessarily totalitarian but a totalitarian regime is not necessarily fascist. Also, I never heard of anyone ever dispute Hitler's Germany as an example of a fascist regime, only that his version was a more racialized variety. Also, the theory of totalitarianism is not as widely accepted, and some consider not a very good or useful theory (I think it was largly created by Arendt?) Anyway, my change was reverted with reference to the talk page, so, Im here and I don't see anything about this issue. I wonder what the objections are to my reasonings. I'm going to make the change again. Giovanni33 05:14, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
I made another edit along similar lines of reasoning. I replaced "expansionist" foreign policy with aggressive "imperialist" foreign policy, because the latter is more precise and insightful into the nature of the expansion than simply saying expansion. The link to imperialism does this. Also, Lebensraum, which was linked to expansionism is actually only the justification that Hitler gave--its not one in the same. So I added that "which Hitler justified as lebensraum" providing that link, as well.
I know that in our age of neo-imperialism much of this is now indirect (although the US invasion of Iraq is not so indirect anymore!), and that Imperialism is also often acquisition of colonies in part of an empire far away, however imperialism is really just the policy of extending control or authority over foreign entities as a means of acquisition and/or maintenance of empires, esp. by direct territorial conquest, frequently employed for economic exploitation in which the imperialist power makes use of other countries as sources of raw materials and cheap labor. When imperialism is accompanied by overt military conquest, it is seen as a violation of freedom and human rights, not the almost humanistic notions of "white man's burden." In anycase, Hiter's state was aggressively Imperialistic and wanted to build and empire. Its capitalist economics also supports the notions of Imperialism. All in all it’s more fitting than simply saying expansionist, although that is also certainly accurate. Giovanni33 05:48, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Fascism and imperialism are highly politically charged words. I'm open to more discussion, but I'm wary of distracting readers with terms which may be misunderstood. Wyss 20:30, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
No offense intended, but the first paragraphs of the article flow without a crispness to them.
These matters should be addressed, I believe. --Chr.K. 20:39, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
The intro must be kept short and concise. It is already too long. Editors are trying to accomplish far too much in the intro. I propose shortening it even more, perhaps down to birth and death dates and political job description. Wyss 21:21, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
First of all, it is not good form to slap us around with "3rr is in effect". You cannot enforce it, so don't wave it around like a tool to use. Secondly, whereas my changes were grammatical and aesthetic in nature, yours are simply blanking - and therefore, are much more needed to be justified here. So, please do. --Golbez 23:28, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Please calm down all. Wyss, at first, made a suggestion to radically cut down the intro: (a suggestion that I don't agree with) - however that was not blanking the page. He followed up his suggestion by reverting back to it once (he cannot be blamed for another revert by another editor). While I disapprove of Wyss revert to his suggestions, which never had much hope for consensus (deleting stuff you cannot agree how to put into word is not a valid solution), and don't understand it either (as Wyss advocates another wording), it is neither blanking the page, nor is it a violation of 3RR, as there were only one revert by Wyss and the page all in all was blanked only three times. It hasn't been blanked since last night (European time), so why are we still discussing this issue? Str1977 18:02, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Wyss' version. Salva 17:48, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
Please help with this article. --Soberre 13:12, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
This is from Wikipedia's page on fascism:
Nazism differed from Fascism proper in the emphasis on the state's purpose in serving its national ideal on the basis of a national race, specifically the social engineering of culture to the ends of the greatest possible prosperity for German race at the expense of all else and all others. In contrast, Mussolini's Fascism held that cultural factors existed to serve the state, and that it wasn't necessarily in the state's interest to serve or engineer any of these particulars within its sphere. The only purpose of government under Fascism was to uphold the state as supreme above all else, and for these reasons it can be said to have been a governmental statolatry. Where Nazism spoke of "Volk", Fascism talked of "State".
While Nazism was a metapolitical ideology, seeing both party and government as a means to achieve an ideal condition for certain chosen people, fascism was a squarely anti-socialist form of statism that existed as an end in and of itself. The Nazi movement, at least in its overt ideology, spoke of class-based society as the enemy, and wanted to unify the racial element above established classes. The Fascist movement, on the other hand, sought to preserve the class system and uphold it as the foundation of established and desirable culture, although this is not to say that Fascists rejected the concept of social mobility. (emphasis added)
Why are we still changing the intro? I thought we finally had a consensus - why the pile-on of Wyss now?Michael Dorosh 00:21, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
I fully support the consensus "totalitarian" version we arrived at. I didn't blank anything, I merely shortened the intro because I felt that was a better interim version (than the misleading, "fascist-imperialist" loaded PoV version) until the one we agreed on was restored by a clear consensus. Glad to see it happened. Wyss 01:11, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
You're mistaken. I have repeatedly said I think the intro should be minimal, and reduced it to that length because certain editors were enaging in a revert war without discussing their edits here on the talk page first. Moreover, the Holocaust has a whole section in the article and in absence of a minimal intro, I fully support the consensus "totalitarian" version of the intro which contains an introductory reference to the Holocaust. Please stop gaming the system by luzzing around trumped up allegations in a shallow attempt to intimidate other editors into submission to your PoV, thanks. Please stop revert warring. I'm open to reasonable discussion on this topic. I have serious problems with the use of the words "fascist" and "imperialist" in the introduction of this sensitive, high traffic article about a complex, genocidal sociopath. This is the Adolf Hitler article, not Bambi. I've stated my concerns succinctly above. Wyss 03:25, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
I never said Fascism was benign. I've discussed this already, above. I support the "totalitarian" version of the intro. Wyss 15:46, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
Count me in among those editors who support the inclusion of imperialist and fascist as better than totalitarian and expansionist. I agree they were also those things but I'm convinced by Giovanni33's arguments. I also don't really like totalitarian; that is a politically loaded word that isn't really accurate, while expansionist is almost the opposite and merely describes expansion in almost a harmless way, which we know is not true. Imperialism implies expansion but in a harmful way. Both fascism and imperialism are terms that carry with them much more explanatory power. Since the terms they fit, according to modern consensus, we are better off with using them to further the education of those who would want to look them up. Imperialism and fascism are both important concepts to both familiarize oneself with and study. There is no better usage than Nazi Germany. MikaM 05:36, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
I've, and others have argued above, imperialism is the right word. So is fascism, and Wyss just becuse you think that Italy and Spain are better subjects for the study of fascism doesnt make it so. The Nazi varient of facism is an excellent place to study second only to Italy. In anycase, as I pointed out the modern consensus among scholars is that Nazism is a form of fascism. As far as Totalitarianism, the theory itself is not completed accepted. And, I don't see Mika being uncivil in anyway.
I see that Michael Dorish has at least attempted to make an argument for expansionist vs. imperialist, however I dispute your claims and will also point out that they are not relevant to an argument that the expansionist aims were not imperialistic. I'll refute your argument and make this case, just as I did for your case against "fascism," earlier, above. The origins of the policies that were were advocated by geopoliticians and implemented by the National Socialists come out of the pre-WWI German imperial ambitions. They crafted the idea of Mitteleuropa which would provide the foundation for later conceptions of lebensraum and economic domination which would later inform geopolitician's theories on pan-regions. There is a continuity between WW1 and WW2 with respect to its expansionism. While the overt motivations were racial, this was the case with most conflicts in this time period to varrying degrees,; German foreign policy was largely consistent in both wars, essentially followed the very same designs laid out by German geopolitik and the historical record of the empire. Thus, this expanion is clearly best understood as a newnewed invigoration of an aggressive imperialism.
This makes imperialism the best word. As a side now, all fascism is imperialistic, and they all had some rationale usually with underlying national claims to those countries. This in no way makes it less of the case of imperialism. Mussolini's imperial ambitions were directed at North Africa, and his armies invaded Ethiopia in 1935. Polish fascists advocated retaking all the lands that had ever been ruled by Polish kings, including East Prussia. Finnish fascists wanted to create a “Greater Finland” at the expense of Russia, and Croatian fascists advocated a “Greater Croatia” at the expense of Serbia. Japanese fascists preached military conquest on behalf of their plan for a “Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere.” French fascists were strong defenders of the French empire in Indochina and North Africa; Portuguese fascists waged colonial wars in Guinea, Angola, and Mozambique. Syrian, Iraqi, and Egyptian fascist movements also supported territorial expansionism. If we look at Hitler’s foreign policy, in particular the concept of Lebensraum, we will see how imperialism is the best word choice.
Lebensraum was coined by Friedrich Ratzel in the late 19th century, when it was used as a slogan in Germany referring to the unification of the country and the acquisition of colonies, as per the English and French models. This expansion to fill available space, he claimed, was a natural and necessary feature of any healthy species. A type of “Manifest Destiny.” In the late 19th century, under the Second Reich (or German Empire), the German socio-financial situation was in crisis Ratzel's Lebensraum theory was heeded by the government, which took the colonialization as an opportunity to expand the empires. The Second Reich considered German South-West Africa (modern-day Namibia) the most appropriate colony for growth of the Empire. Adding living space was believed to strengthen Germany by helping solve internal problems, make it militarily stronger, and help make Germany become economically self-sufficient by adding food an other raw material sources.
The concept of Lebensraum was discussed and developed by scholars Karl Haushofer, Sir Halford Mackinder, Friendrich von Bernhardi, and Friedrich Ratzel. In 1926, Hans Grimm's book Volk ohne Raum ("A People without Space") was published. This book became a classic on Germany's need for space and the book's title soon became a popular National Socialist slogan. In von Bernhardi's 1912 book Germany and the Next War, he expanded upon Ratzel's hypotheses identifying Eastern Europe as a source of new space. Hitler was attracted to these Pan-European ideals . In Mein Kampf Hitler had come to believe that Russia was the direction Germany should expand. The elements of the program outlined in Mein Kampf included the idea of military expansion and force expulsion of the nations of Poland, Ukraine, Russia and other countries in order to prepare settlements for German people (both Reichsdeutsche and Volksdeutsche). · "In an era when the earth is gradually being divided up among states, some of which embrace almost entire continents, we cannot speak of a world power in connection with a formation whose political mother country is limited to the absurd area of five hundred thousand square kilometers."--- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf
Hitler looked east for Germany's expansion in Europe. It was in this view that Hitler added a racist element to Lebensraum. By stating that the Soviet Union was run by Jews, then Hitler concluded Germany had a right to take Russian land. Its important to note that Ratzel's ideas were very much the intellectual fashions in late 19th-and early 20th-century Germany, where various forms of 'Social Darwinism' were prevalent. Ratzel's ideas also fitted into the general debate about German imperialism. The idea of increasing Germany's strength by encouraging migration to Germany's colonies had developed during the 1880s and 1890s. It was thought that sending settlers to colonies could be an attractive alternative to simply trading in their raw materials. Economic imperialism was particularly popular with industry, and migrationist colonialism became associated with agrarianism.
The years immediately preceding World War One, the focus of this colonialism shifted from the settlement of overseas colonies to the idea of conquering territory in eastern Europe, and of settling it with German peasants. The leading advocate of this notion was the influential chauvinist pressure group, the Pan-German League, and its associated propagandists. Of these the most notable was the aforementioned retired general and ultra-conservative publicist, Friedrich von Bernhardi.
Also, note that Hitler had already started his political career in 1919, and had been influenced by this kind of Pan-German thinking. During his period in Landsberg prison (where he had been incarcerated following the failure of his notorious coup in November 1923), he read and discussed Ratzel's work and other geopolitical literature provided by a Munich Professor of Geography, Karl Haushofer, and fellow-prisoner Rudolf Hess. Haushofer emphasised the 'extremely unfavorable situation of the Reich from the viewpoint of military geography' and Germany's limited resources of food and raw materials, and thus provided Hitler with an intellectual justification for his views. These were expressed in Mein Kampf, and remained fundamentally the same through the years. I invite you to look up Karl Haushofer, and in particular his Geopolitik, which was in essence a consolidation and codification of older ideas, given a scientific gloss:
The key reorientation in each dyad is that the focus is on land-based empire rather than naval imperialism. Ostensibly based upon the geopolitical theory of American naval officer Alfred Thayer Mahan, and British geographer Halford J. Mackinder, German geopolitik adds older German ideas. Enunciated most forcefully by Friedrich Ratzel and his Swedish student Rudolf Kjellén, they include an organic or anthropomorphized conception of the state, and the need for self-sufficiency through the top-down organization of society. The root of uniquely German geopolitik rests in the writings of Karl Ritter who first developed the organic conception of the state that would later by elaborated upon by Ratzel and accepted by Hausfhofer. He justified lebensraum at all costs because conquest was a biological necessity for a state's growth.
Ratzel's writings coincided with the growth of German industrialism after the Franco-Prussian war and the subsequent search for markets that brought it into competition with Britain. His writings served as welcome justification for imperial expansion. Influenced by Mahan, Ratzel wrote of aspirations for German naval reach, agreeing that sea power was self-sustaining, as the profit from trade would pay for the merchant marine, unlike land power. Haushofer was exposed to Ratzel, who was friends with Haushofer's father, a teacher of economic geography. It developed as a distinct strain of thought after Otto von Bismarck's unification of the German states, but only began its development in earnest under Emperor Wilhelm II. Central concepts concerning the German race, and regarding economic space, demonstrate continuity from the German Imperial time up through Adolf Hitler's Third Reich: Imperial geostrategist, German geopoliticians, and Nazi strategists.
Geopolitik developed from widely varied sources, including the writings of Oswald Spengler, Alexander Humboldt, Karl Ritter, Friedrich Ratzel, Rudolf Kjellén, and General Karl Haushofer, while finding its final expression in Adolph Hitler.
Its defining charcteristic, differentiating it from American, British, French or other schools of geopolitics, is the inclusion of organic state theory, and a clash of civilizations informed by Social Darwinism.
German geostrategic though links the motivations for World War I and World War II in German foreign policy. Both times, Germany acted as a revisionist state within the international system, attempting to overthrow British domination, and counter what it saw as rising American and Russian hegemony. As a latecomer to nationhood proper, lacking colonies or markets for industrial output, but also experiencing rapid population growth, Germany desired a more equitable distribution of wealth and territory within the international system. Modern scholars have begun to treat the two World Wars caused by Germany as one single war, in which the revisionist Germany attempted to bid for hegemonic control with which to reorder the international system. While the overt motivations were racial, as was the case with most conflicts in this time period, German foreign policy was largely consistent in both wars. The Nazi foreign policy was unique insofar as it learned from what it saw as past imperial mistakes, but essentially followed the very same designs laid out by German geopolitik and the historical record of the empire. Thus, this expanion is clearly best understood as a newnewed invigoration of an aggressive imperialism. To call it merely “expansion” is befreft of historical understanding. I also provide the following sources for my claims. If anything specific is in despute, I can cite specifically as well as all these ideas are well in the mainstream.
The Myth of the Master Race by Robert Cecil (Batsford, 1972) War Land on the Eastern Front. Culture, National Identity and German Occupation in World War I by Vejas Gabriel Liulevicius (Cambridge University Press, 2000) Himmler. Reichsführer SS by Peter Padfield (Macmillan, 1990) The Ideological Origins of Nazi Imperialism by Woodruff D Smith (Oxford University Press, 1986) Hitler and the Quest for World Dominion. Nazi ideology and Foreign Policy in the 1920s by Geoffrey Stoakes (Berg, 1986) Germany Turns Eastwards. A Study of Ostforschung in the Third Reich by Michael Burleigh (Cambridge University Press, 1988) Mein Kampf by Adolf Hitler (republished by Hutchinson, 1974 - originally published by?) Jeremy Noakes is professor of history at the University of Exeter. He is the author of The Nazi Party in Lower Saxony 1919-1933 (OUP, 1971) and editor (with Geoffrey Pridham) of Nazism 1919-1945, 4 vols (University of Exeter Press, 1983-1998).
Giovanni33 19:43, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
I'm not apologizing for anything; Hitler's expansionism was apparent, but his first grab at something he have absolutely no shred of a claim to came with the invasion of Poland. Mein Kampf made it quite clear what his ultimate goals were, but he very effectively gambled and played the Allies weaknessed up until September 1939.Michael Dorosh 20:27, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
Camillus,
"Blanking" is no personal attack but in this case it isn't accurate either.
Some comments on the wording issues:
Str1977 22:59, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
Nazi Germany fits all definitions of totalitarianism I've ever seen, but not all definitions of fascism -- which makes it especially notable that they were totalitarian, because "totalitarian" retains its meaning more than "fascism" does. A.J.A. 20:23, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
Exactly. Again, I have to ask why people can't just leave well enough alone. Michael Dorosh 20:25, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
Str1977 23:15, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
User:BelindaGong, User:MikaM and User:Giovanni33 have been editing through aggressive reverts at Christianity, in disagreement with User:Str1977 and others. I'm wondering if their sudden flurry of coordinated edits and aggressive revert warring here are related? Should they review WP:Point and WP:Stalking for the purpose of considering whether their edits here are in conformance with WP policy, or even helpful? Wyss 00:09, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
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