There's an edit war currently unfolding with regards to the candidates featured in the infobox, with some editors declining to discuss their edits. The most recent discussion of any substance about this issue is at Talk:United States presidential election, 2016/Archive 10#For Third Parties, should we include Write-In Access for the Purposes of Organization and the Infobox, and it mostly endorses (many) previous discussions. However, more discussion is always welcome and certainly better than violating the 1RR restriction in place on this article. In short, there are three live (as opposed to merely hypothetical) issues open:
A) Should Darrell Castle be featured in the infobox?
B.) How should Castle be positioned in the infobox?
C.) How should Gary Johnson be positioned in the infobox?
Any other issues are a distraction from these - Stein and Castle can't get 538 electoral votes, and no other minor candidate can get 270. The issues above need to be resolved in line with consensus, either the previous existing consensus or new discussion below. They should not be edit warred over. 64.105.98.115 (talk) 15:02, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
- The issue regarding the inclusion of Castle was previously discussed, it was agreed that the policy from 2012 regarding infobox inclusion would be implemented here. Any candidate who has ballot access to 270 electors will be included in the infobox, this includes states in which a candidate has to file a list of electors to qualify as a write in. Castle now qualifies under this scheme. It is possible that De La Fuente may as well. I doubt any other candidate could feasibly make it to 270 at this point, even with filing slates of write in electors. XavierGreen (talk) 16:32, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
- Castle should not be in the infobox. Putting him there gives him undue weight, suggesting to our average, uninformed reader that he has a chance of being important in this election, which he does not. Polls are what matters, not ballot access. The Constitution Party is incredibly unimportant. Earthscent (talk) 05:14, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
- I thought there was also a criteria of being at at least 5% in any independent poll? Calibrador (talk) 05:23, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
- That has been used in the past, and seemed like a good compromise then. Earthscent (talk) 05:26, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
- Well I think the three criteria of being Constitutionally eligible, ballot access to at least 270 electoral votes, and at least 5% in any independent polling should be used as the infobox criteria. Calibrador (talk) 05:40, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
- I agree with both; I think Calibrador and Earthscent have reasonable ideas. We should adopt that. My point of contention, though is that it just really wouldn't know that – and, in our common sense, yes Johnson and the Trump and Clinton do all have 538 votes, but in reality it is important to distinguish between those types of perceptions and actually the two major candidates who will both win states, and Johnson (as well as Stein), who have really absolutely no chance of becoming president. 198.84.229.179 (talk) 21:19, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
- The consensus was that polls were not used for infobox inclusion in 2012; all six candidates who had the requisite ballot access were featured. I support continuing this for this cycle, which would mean Castle should be included. (Note that actual popular vote results have been used for inclusion after the election; I'm not sure if it's ever been used before the election.) As for placement, I'd support putting Johnson in the top row only if he gets ballot access in all 51 jurisdictions, otherwise the infobox should remain with two candidates per row. Antony–22 (talk⁄contribs) 09:57, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
- I definitely agree with you about the being on the ballot in 51 jurisdictions part, and being in the first row if that happens. Calibrador (talk) 10:37, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
The consensus has been for many years that, to be included in the infobox, a candidate needs to be on the ballot in enough states to mathematically win a majority of electoral votes. If there are reliable sources that say that Castle is on the ballot in enough states to total a potential of 270 electoral votes, then he goes into the infobox; if not, he doesn't. Sparkie82 (t•c) 18:53, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
- There is a difference between pre- and post-election inclusion. Consensus for pre-election inclusion is that they can mathematically win a majority of electoral votes (270). The consensus for post-election inclusion, if I recall correctly, was dependent on the percentage of votes received. And if I recall correctly even further, that cutoff was 5% of the popular vote. The last time this happened was in the 1996 election where Ross Perot got 8.4%. --Majora (talk) 18:58, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
- I'm fine with the status quo, according to the source though, Castle has passed the 270 mark again. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 19:01, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
- I'm one of the ones that added Castle to the infobox and I think that he should be re-added. The previous consensus says he should be listed and I feel like we should stick with that. I'm sorry but the 5% polling idea would be a little silly, and it would mean we would have to remove Jill Stein from the infobox. Polling is not entirely accurate, and it is an arbitrary criteria for inclusion. Having enough ballot access to win a majority of electoral college votes is pretty straightforward criteria, and it doesn't fluctuate throughout the election season like polls do. Prcc27🌍 (talk) 19:56, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
- @Prcc27: The 5% is only for post-election inclusion and is based on the popular vote. Can't get much more straightforward there. Consensus for pre-election inclusion seems to be in favor of including him. However, I don't think we should be doing three photos across. As that messes with smaller screens and pushes the lead all the way over to the left making it hard to read. --Majora (talk) 20:05, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
- Yeah, but Calibrador was suggesting that that be the criteria for pre-election inclusion. I don't oppose using the 5% popular vote threshold as a requirement for post-election inclusion. Anyways, I'm not sure if I know how to put him in a third row; do you know how to do that? Prcc27🌍 (talk) 20:11, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
- I just implemented it with a third row, you do it by adding a page break in the code right before you want the information to spill onto a third row.XavierGreen (talk) 17:59, 6 September 2016 (UTC)
- I'd also like to note that the 2012 rules which were adopted here previously through consensus include only states where a slate of electors has to be filed to qualify as a write in candidate. This is a very important distinction, there are states which allow write in votes and yet do not demand a slate of electors to be filed IE, New Jersey (most of these states will not count write in votes unless write ins are a majority or plurality of votes cast.)XavierGreen (talk) 18:02, 6 September 2016 (UTC)
- I want to point out that at the end of the cycle those with less than 5% of the vote are going to be deleted anyways per consensus. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 18:05, 6 September 2016 (UTC)
- If Johnson makes it to the 1st row, and if he's on the ballot in every jurisdiction with electoral votes, then what does Castle have to do to make it to the 2nd row? It seems weird arbitrarily placing Castle there when people obviously don't mind having 3 people in the same row (i.e. Clinton/Trump/Johnson in row 1). What if Stein and/or Castle make it on the ballot in every jurisdiction with electoral votes? Would they also be put in the 1st row? If we're going to keep Castle in the 3rd row- I oppose adding any third party candidate e.g. Johnson to the 1st row for the most part. Prcc27🌍 (talk) 18:12, 6 September 2016 (UTC)
- Alright. Sure, RedLime, I agree. It definitely looks better now. But, as I had said before on many posts here, it should have three rows when there are the six candidates. The rest of the article gets pushed aside, which needlessly stretches the introduction. And, more importantly, there are three distinct tiers for these candidates – the two major-party nominees, who consistently receive above forty percent in the polls, or, at the lowest, the high thirties. Then, actually, the major third parties, whose candidates are featured in almost every new poll and usually get support within the single digits. The other two, whose inclusion at the top I vehemently oppose, are very rarely mentioned by the public or discussed in the media. They also have very low recognition figures, as opposed to the others – depending on the source, between thirty and eighty percent of American voters have heard of Johnson and Stein. 198.84.229.179 (talk) 00:33, 2 October 2016 (UTC)
The only issue with having three pictures in the same row, as it stands, is due to picture size. The formatting gets all wonky and people with smaller screens are forced to read a tiny column of text that is supposed to be the lead. That really is not acceptable from an accessibility standpoint. If you look at the last time there were three people in one row, United States presidential election, 1996, the pictures were shrunk. In this article each picture stands at about 135x200 (I only looked at Clinton's to get an estimate). On the 1996 page they are 115x153 (again, only looked at Clinton's (Bill this time) to get an estimate). --Majora (talk) 22:16, 6 September 2016 (UTC)
- The standard for election pages across Wikipedia is to have candidates listed in the infobox in rows of three, see for example German_federal_election,_2017, French_legislative_election,_2017, Chadian_presidential_election,_2016, Australian Capital Territory general election, 2016, Georgian parliamentary election, 2016, ect.XavierGreen (talk) 22:34, 6 September 2016 (UTC)
- The US does not have a parliamentary system or any type of proportional representation. Parties can get 15-25% in the US and never win one state or seat in Congress ever, not the same in those countries you listed. That's a fallacious comparison and not applicable to this election. 2601:589:4705:B31D:2875:7808:34C6:4680 (talk) 02:32, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
- The standard for most countries around the world is to have more than two parties that actually do anything. The U.S. is strange like that and "standards" don't really matter all that much if the local consensus is against it. --Majora (talk) 22:35, 6 September 2016 (UTC)
- As Sparkie82 has said, there is no consensus to remove him, either. Why include him when we haven't agreed to on that 'talk page' that you always mention? And I can't see why any of you think I'm trying to be hostile – my goal here is to give this community some feedback and improve its ethical dimension. 198.84.229.179 (talk) 17:37, 2 October 2016 (UTC)
If Castle is going to be in the infobox, how about someone add a cropped version of his portrait so it matches the other photos (same size, proportions, etc.). As of now it looks very lazy. Calibrador (talk) 04:15, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
- There are a couple of face crops in the file history of the current image that could be uploaded separately. I don't know why they weren't already, given how much attention has been paid to images on this discussion page. I agree that a face crop would better match the other images in the infobox. 64.105.98.115 (talk) 05:01, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
- Local consensus does not necessarily prevail here. There is already a consensus across election pages for Wikipedia to have rows of three for other countries as well as for the United States. There is a row of 3 candidates for the 1992 and 1996 elections. Ross Perot made it to the 1st row for having ballot access in every jurisdiction with electoral votes just as there is consensus to do the same if a Johnson, Stein, Castle, etc. gets complete ballot access. Many people on this talk page think the 1st row should have up to 3 people and should be reserved for candidates with complete ballot access. The 2nd row is reserved for candidates that don't have complete ballot access and since the maximum capacity for row 1 is 3- the maximum capacity for row 2 should also be 3. Prcc27🌍 (talk) 15:52, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
- At this point, the only way De La Fuente or the Party for Socialism and Liberation can achieve 270 is through write ins. I don't think any of the others can make it at this point, even with write ins.XavierGreen (talk) 17:38, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
- @XavierGreen: keeps adding Castle into the infobox. There is no consensus to make that change. XavierGreen has attempted to re-add Castle at least three times on Sept. 6th at these edits: I am politely asking XavierGreen to remove Castle from the infobox. Sparkie82 (t•c) 19:04, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
- @XavierGreen:, please remove Castle from the infobox. Sparkie82 (t•c) 19:04, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
- I repeat, if there are multiple, reliable sources that say that Castle will be on the ballot in enough states to have a mathematical possibility to achieve at least 270 electoral votes, then he can be added. Until then, he should not be in the infobox. Sparkie82 (t•c) 19:04, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
- He already has ballot access to more than 270 electoral college votes, the consensus here was to use the same inclusion criteria from 2012, and he meets that criteria. Also, I did not "attempt to re-add Castle three times on September 6" as you incorrectly assert above. My initial edit was not reverted, and one of my subsequent edits on that day were to correct mistakes I had made in the infobox coding for his entry. My third edit had nothing to do with the infobox at all: it added some minor ballot access information to the sections on other candidates entries in the body of the page. XavierGreen (talk) 19:21, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
- The article says he is only on the ballot in states totaling 207 electoral votes. That's not enough to be included in the infobox. The consensus states that a candidate must be on the ballot in enough states to have a mathematical possibility to achieve 270 electoral votes (not write-in votes, but on the ballot -- please read the consensus from previous years for details.) Sparkie82 (t•c) 20:49, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
- XavierGreen, please remove Castle from the infobox. Sparkie82 (t•c) 20:49, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
- No; but that hasn't been the consensus – they hadn't, in that way, originally agreed on using this for the infobox as the 2012 criteria. I agree that only "on the ballot", as in not including write-in votes, are counting. And the overall rolling average, anyways, does not include him. There are four major candidates in this election, if you would actually like to put it that way, and Darrell Castle is not one of them. 198.84.229.179 (talk) 22:26, 26 September 2016 (UTC)
- The 2012 rules as adopted here specifically included write in access where such access required a candidate to file a list of electors. This is outlined thoroughly in the discussion above, as well as the talk page archives here.XavierGreen (talk) 21:15, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
- As you know clearly enough, XavierGreen, there was never a consensus on that. To Sparkie82, though, I think you should rephrase your criticisms a bit. 198.84.229.179 (talk) 00:33, 2 October 2016 (UTC)
Ballot Access News released a story today that Johnson will be on the ballot in that state. The Libertarian Party still has yet to update their own ballot access map on their website, however (http://ballot-access.org/2016/09/09/rhode-island-secretary-of-state-says-three-independent-presidential-petitions-have-enough-valid-signatures/). Okay, so now that Gary Johnson has total ballot access in all 50 states and D.C., I believe his picture should be included in the first row. Maybe we should wait until we get confirmation by the Libertarian Party updating their own ballot access map, but the issue remains of whether Johnson should be in the first row, and I believe he should. Someone else here on this talk page suggested a 5% polling rule for the first row. That proposal was rejected but it may be worth noting that, even if we were to use that rule, Gary Johnson should be included in the first row because he has been consistently polling nationally at about 8% for some time now. In moving Gary Johnson to the first row, I believe Castle should be moved to the second so that we can go back to having just two rows. Not only does having three rows just seem clunky and annoying, but if Johnson is moved to the first row, it would simply be silly to have one row for Stein and one row for Castle. VladJ92 (talk) 19:42, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
- Having ballot access to every electoral vote is a symbolic milestone. Johnson's chances of winning hardly increased tbh. Ask yourself this: if Johnson had ballot access to every electoral vote, but Trump didn't have ballot access in Washington, D.C. would you place Johnson in the first row and Trump in the second row? I'm worried that putting Johnson in the first row would violate WP:UNDUE. Do the reliable sources view Johnson as being on the same level as Clinton and Trump? If not (which I'm sure they don't), why would they be on the same level (row) in the article? Maybe making it to at least one of the CPD debates would be reasonable criteria for inclusion in the 1st row since the reliable sources would most likely cover a third party candidate more than they have been doing. But I highly doubt Johnson's ballot access milestone will result in significantly more coverage. I am however open to having 3 people in one row i.e. Johnson, Stein, and Castle in the 2nd row. Prcc27🌍 (talk) 22:22, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
- The CPD has a 15% polling requirement and they can choose their own set of polls, so that would be a much stricter requirement than the old 5% polling requirement that already doesn't have support. I doubt that such a standard is workable this year. I'm not saying it's good or bad, just unlikely to get support. Personally I don't like a standard that lets polling organizations control who can be considered by simply not polling those they don't like. 64.105.98.115 (talk) 23:51, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
- I totally understand not wanting to use polls as criteria for inclusion in the 1st row. But if Jill Stein also gets ballot access to every electoral college vote, she would probably remain in the 2nd row even though Johnson and Stein would belong in the same row in my opinion. Clinton and Trump get far more coverage and as a result only having those two in the 1st row would be an example of applying due weight. If the reliable sources start covering the election as a three-way race then maybe it would be acceptable to include Johnson (or whomever) in the 1st row. Prcc27🌍 (talk) 00:49, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
- No, I don't think that would have to be the case. The bias would be noted by many longtime editors here, and would be replaced. Petitioning for ballot access has ended in every state already, and Jill Stein is still a bit far from 538, even with her write-ins. 198.84.229.179 (talk) 00:28, 29 September 2016 (UTC)
Summary
- Castle cannot appear in the infobox unless there is an change in the long-standing consensus that says that the only candidates in the infobox are those who are on the ballot in enough states to have a mathematical possibility to obain 270 electoral votes. (That consensus was reached with scores of editors and changing it would require a well-publicised RfC with unanimity from many editors, not just 2-out-of-3 editors during a holiday weekend.)
- There is a consensus, recently reached here on this article via RfC, as to the order of the candidates in the infobox based on previous electoral results.
- There has never been a consensus as to the number of rows or the number of candidates per row.
- The use of polls for making these type of editorial decisions has been discussed many times and rejected for many reasons, including the fact that polls are unreliable. (Actual election results, however, have been used as a criterion, although they too have the inherent problem of arbitrariousness.(Is that a word?)
Also, changing the inclusion criteria for the infobox to accomodate specific candidates or for specific elections seems like a biased way to handle these election articles. See Stare decisis Sparkie82 (t•c) 05:03, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
- But, that here, is obviously only talking about the ballot votes: again, not the write-in ones. Done!198.84.229.179 (talk) 21:27, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
- So it happened four years ago, with the Socialists or Communists? I forgot who exactly that party consisted of, though.198.84.229.179 (talk) 22:00, 28 September 2016 (UTC)
There was a subsection added to this discussion titled "Row of three". I refactored it as a sandalone discussion. Sparkie82 (t•c) 05:13, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
- Just to be clear; there is consensus to include write-in access (as long as they have a slate of electors) for inclusion in the infobox. This has already been discussed this year and in 2012. Unless you can provide a link to this "long-standing consensus" you are referring to- Castle should remain in the infobox. Prcc27🌍 (talk) 13:50, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
- @Prcc27: That is not correct. The consensus is that candidates who are on the ballot in enough states to get to 270 electoral votes are included in the infobox, not write-ins. Here is a link to the consesus from 2012:
- Specific quotes from the 2012 discussion that established the consesus:
- "I agree with Jay. The candidates with enough ballot access (not write-in status) to win the election should be included here. Wikipedia influences the polls, not vice versa."
- "... agree on some criterias the (third party) Candidates should meet. When I read this through I can see a concensus for for the first:
- "*The candidate will appear on enough state ballots to actually win the election (270 electorial votes) Done (concensus reached)"
- Further, the discussion cited above by User:Prcc27 (which was not a discussion about infobox inclusion) says right at the top:
- "Yes, but with the understanding that write-in status does not confer notability. IMO, we should only list it for the candidates that have achieved actual ballot access elsewhere. Moreover, it should not be used when calculating eligibility for the infobox."
- I'm going to put this link and a summary at the top of this page so there will be more more efforts at consesus creep. If you want to change the consesus, then go ahead and open a well-advertised RfC and try to change it, but don't try to attempt to alter the criteria for inclusion in the infobox by mis-stating or mis-characterizing what was discussed and agreed to in 2012; or by opening a discussion during the Labor Day holidays with a handful of editors. Sparkie82 (t•c) 18:07, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
- Fine, but per WP:EDITCONSENSUS there was consensus for including all candidates that could theoretically win 270 electoral votes even if they are only a write-in. Virgil Goode was in the infobox in 2012 despite not appearing on the ballot in enough states to win 270 electoral votes. Since he had enough access through write-ins, he was included. That was the consensus through editing in 2012 and it appears that this idea of including everyone that can theoretically win 270 electoral votes is still supported in 2016. Prcc27🌍 (talk) 19:37, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
- See the infobox on the consensus from last cycle, which says that ballot access "includ[es] write-in access in states that have had full electoral slates nominated and certified." That last clause is important, since we need to verify that electors were actually named in the write-in states. Antony–22 (talk⁄contribs) 00:42, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
- @Antony-22: I don't know who put that notice there but it does not reflect the consensus. The discussions that that notice references do not show that there is a consensus for write-ins to be considered, and neither do any other discussions. In fact, the discussion it references here says the opposite, that write-ins should not be considered as an inclusion criterion. Sparkie82 (t•c) 19:22, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
- @Prcc27: Then where is the discussion that gained that consensus? There is none. Just because someone is able to sneak in an edit, that does not change a consensus that was discussed over a long period by many, many editors and restated continually since then. There are some here right now who keep putting Castle back into the infobox without consensus -- that does not change the consensus that write-ins status is not considered for inclusion into the infobox. Sparkie82 (t•c) 19:22, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
- Consensus doesn't require a discussion per the link I provided: "Any edit that is not disputed or reverted by another editor can be assumed to have consensus." Since nobody disputed or reverted including candidates in the infobox that had sufficient ballot access through being a write-in ; that is what the consensus is. Prcc27🌍 (talk) 19:52, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
- @Prcc27: What do you think this discussion is? This discussion disputes the addition of Castle into the infobox! Castle's addition to the infobox has also been reverted here before because he is not on the ballot in enough states to get to 270 electoral votes. Sparkie82 (t•c) 03:03, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
- Yes, it has been disputed this year, but it was not disputed at all (from what I can tell) in 2012. The consensus in 2012 was to include candidates in Castle's situation per WP:EDITCONSENSUS. But the consensus this year is still being determined and only now has this already established consensus been challenged. Until consensus changes, we are stuck with the old consensus. The whole point of the 270 electoral college threshold is so that every candidate that can theoretically win is included in the infobox. Since Castle can theoretically win, why should he be excluded? Prcc27🌍 (talk) 18:10, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
The inclusion in on the basis of write-in was disputed and discussed at length in 2012 Talk:United_States_presidential_election,_2012/Archive_9#Number_of_candidates_in_the_infobox. The consensus was to use the 270 EV threshold using states where candidate appears on the ballot. I support using that sensible, objective criteria. Bcharles (talk) 21:42, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
- After re-reviewing the discussion I found that an IP address user advocated for including write-ins with a slate of electors and another user (William S. Saturn) called it a "good statement". In fact, William S. Saturn was the only person that explicitly said don't include write-ins (but that statement was made before they praised IP's comment on write-ins). While some specifically said they only wanted to include people on the ballot in jurisdictions consisting of 270+ EVs (perhaps not even intentionally meaning to exclude write-ins with elector slates in their statements)- others simply said "ballot access" to 270+ EVs should be the requirement which doesn't necessarily exclude write-ins. So no, there was not consensus for excluding write-ins with sufficient ballot access. The editing pattern reflects this very clearly. Including all candidates that can theoretically win enough electoral votes to win the election is way less subjective than only including some candidates that can theoretically win the election. Prcc27🌍 (talk) 23:27, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
- The phrase, "only wanted to include people on the ballot in jurisdictions consisting of 270+ EVs" very explicitly excludes write-ins from the calculation. The term "ballot access" refers to listing candidates on the ballot. "Write-in" is a way to vote for someone who does not have ballot access. The statements you quote were clear, you are just refusing to hear what they say.
- The point is not to have some theoretical possibility to win a majority of the electoral college, but to have a meaningful gauge to compare the organization and viability of various parties and campaigns. The threshold of getting on the ballot is a better measure of that strength, and is closer to the possibility of winning a state. Ballot lines for a majority of EV is also a criteria used historically, such as for inclusion in debates (LWV, Free & Equal). Bcharles (talk) 03:15, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
- That's not true. Virgil Goode was included in the Free & Equal debate and he wouldn't have qualified if your proposed criteria was used. Thanks for proving that ballot access in addition to write-in access is the criteria historically used for debates and otherwise. From what I can tell, nobody bothered to refute the IP's comment on including write-ins with elector slates. A well established consensus usually includes refutations to opposing views. So, I still don't believe there was consensus for excluding write-access as criteria for inclusion since nobody said they disagreed with their reasoning. Prcc27🌍 (talk) 11:56, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
Of course it is! That isn't why it happened, Prcc27 globe! It says quite well at Castle won't qualify for the debate this year. Kindly, though, you are really just using your own arguments against yourself! 198.84.229.179 (talk) 21:35, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
- Just for the record I favor including Darrell Castle as he does have a way to win. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 14:53, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
- @Knowledgekid87: Anyone has a way to win. If some people write your name in as a write-in and after the election you file a suit with the Supreme Court and they select you as the winner in your state and there are only two other candidates with electoral votes split evenly between them, then it goes to the House. Then the House could vote you in as president. But having a chance to win the presidency is not the long-standing criterion for inclusion in the infobox. The long-standing criterion for inclusion in the infobox is to be on the ballot in enough states to have a mathematical possibility of winning 270 electoral votes. If you would like to change that criterion, you need to have a very good reason and then make a case with a well-advertised RfC that persuades all or nearly all of the editors here to achieve a new consensus. Sparkie82 (t•c) 04:56, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
- You statement here is incorrect, a write in candidate in state that requires a candidate to file qualifying paperwork and a slate of electors does not need to file a law suit to get his votes/electors recognized. The states in question count the votes of qualified write in candidates, and should they win - would grant them their electors. That is the entire purpose behind making such candidates file paperwork and a slate of electors to become qualified.XavierGreen (talk) 15:17, 16 September 2016 (UTC)
- @Prcc27: I'm sorry, but your view on this issue and of the facts doesn't reflect reality. Sparkie82 (t•c) 04:56, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
- But, that is absolutely true!198.84.229.179 (talk) 21:35, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
- No; an RFC would be very unnecessary. The discussion in 2012 wasn't an RFC (as far as I know) and even if your viewpoint did have consensus back then it obviously changed when Virgil Goode was added to the infobox without dispute. Afaik, everyone with a theoretical chance of winning (including those that could split the electoral vote and make it to the house ballot) are include in the article while everyone with a theoretical chance of winning a majority of electoral votes (the most practical and common way to win) is listed in the infobox. Seems pretty simple to me.. Prcc27🌍 (talk) 14:09, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
- Exactly. Well said: Uppfeil, that is absolutely true regarding the status for Castle and de la Fuente's campaigns.198.84.229.179 (talk) 21:45, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
- Castle clearly doesn't have ballot access to 270 electoral votes and therefore should not be included in the infoboxes. As other users have already pointed out, write-ins are not the same thing as ballot access. If a candidates name is not printed on the ballot then they do not have ballot access. Ebonelm(talk) 18:36, 16 September 2016 (UTC)
If a candidate can theoretically win 270 electoral votes, then such a candidate should be included in the infobox.JC · Talk · Contributions 19:56, 16 September 2016 (UTC)
- @Prcc27: Several users have removed Castle from the infobox, only to have their change reverted. That was true in 2012 as well. His presence is not a consensus, but a dispute that is being re-addressed in this discussion. note from 198.84.229.179: "Can we find who made this post? I can't seem to be able to track down this author. This message isn't being attributed to any editor eight now."
- Of course you are, but realize that there can plausibly be a lot more than that. I'm not trying to be angry at you, but I would like to help with the formulation of a better-molded election website. 198.84.229.179 (talk) 00:18, 29 September 2016 (UTC)
Respectfully speaking, that isn't true at all. 198.84.229.179 (talk) 21:45, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
- @JCRules: A number of candidates have only filed as write-in candidates in various states. If one such write-in campaign successfully files as a write-in in sufficient states to represent 270 electoral votes, should they be considered notable enough to include in the infobox?
- Although 36 states provide procedures for filing as a write-in, several specifically say they will not allow them (AR, NM), or will not count them (DC, MS, NE, OR, WA). Some states (e.g. IL) require filing with local officials, making it very difficult to verify who has filed where. Do you count a candidate that has only filed in towns representing a majority of the state population? Some states do not require a full slate of electors (e.g. IN). Some do not require any electors be named, others do not require a filing at all. Some write-in filings are not needed until late October or early November. WY is not due till after the election.
- Apart from difficulties of tracking relevant write-ins, the likely hood of getting enough voter awareness to win a state by write-in would take phenomenal resources, well beyond what is needed to get on the ballot. A campaign that lacks the organization and support to get on the ballot does not have a chance of winning, particularly with the profound handicap of not being listed on the ballot. Bcharles (talk) 01:18, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
- If you can theoretically win the White House, you should be in the infobox, period. At this time, there are five people who are capable of doing so. Take a look at Senator Lisa Murkowski of Alaska, who won the 2010 election as a write-in candidate. JC · Talk · Contributions 04:44, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
- I would like to disagree completely, "JC". There is absolutely no established consensus at all, and I couldn't really think of a reason why, anyone who "could" win should be included in there. In theory, every candidate that has even 1 electoral vote available (House of Representatives), or even someone who doesn't (faithless elector), could win. That is why your argument is invalidated: you say that that would require, in such a sense, a threshold to of 270, but that is just completely not tracked at all – practically, it would make no sense to put write-ins on as part of that list. Strength doesn't come in numbers, it really is the perceived objectiveness of your points.198.84.229.179 (talk) 21:45, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
- JC, this is a different scenario. Lisa Murkowski was a sitting United States Senator who lost her party's nomination but had name recognition and the power of incumbency behind her in one of America's less-populated states. Not to mention that she was neck-and-neck with Joe Miller in the polls, which made her a major candidate. The closest analogy I could think of is an extremely, extremely, extremely unlikely scenario where Barack Obama loses the Democratic nomination in 2012 and has no choice but to run as a write-in candidate, in which case he would have a substantial presence in the polls and have the power of incumbency behind him, making him a major candidate. On the other hand, he could have just started his own party and most likely would have had enough supporters behind him to gain 270+ EV ballot access if that happened. But to close out, Castle is not an incumbent elected official and is not even registering above 1% in polls. Apples and oranges.--Guiletheme (talk) 20:02, 24 September 2016 (UTC)
- Seriously speaking, I don't think that is needed. On the talk page, there are too many comments about this. I think the discussion on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States_presidential_election,_2016/Archive_10#For_Third_Parties.2C_should_we_include_Write-In_Access_for_the_Purposes_of_Organization_and_the_Infobox should be added, so that they can see it. Anyways, I agree with the old consensus in readership that candidates should be major ones in getting to it. I do follow politics quite a bit in fact, and so there is no reason, in my opinion, why Castle should be included here. I certainly do understand your arguments, but in all those of articles I have read, I have seen only one mention of Castle, yet at least 500 each for Stein and Johnson (yes, I do read a lot). And the Castle one was on a particularly "Constitutionalist-leaning" website. That's why they aren't major. And any big polls recognized by RCP, HuffPost, 538, others, or etc, they don't ever have any about the candidacy of Castle. So, I think we should let ourselves look to the outside world a little bit – most polls say that the majority of Americans have heard of Stein and Johnson, in fact, but very few (1-5 percent) know that guy. And so, for the sake of really getting it there, I would recommend that the criteria be changed to being listed in most national polls, or, like before, getting actual ballot featuring in 270 votes, and not just write-in as well. Thanks for considering. 198.84.229.179 (talk) 21:16, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
- Yes; this is true. Castle did not receive 270 actual votes, and there fore should not be on the infobox, on this page. 198.84.229.179 (talk) 21:30, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
- Of course there is no consensus, that's why we are discussing this. Allow me to amend to my original statement, alright? If a candidate can win the presidency without the House of Representatives deciding it because nobody got to 270 electoral votes, then they should be in the infobox. Johnson has access to all 538 electoral votes, he gets on. Stein has access to 522 electoral votes, she gets on. Castle has access to 324 electoral votes, he gets on. McMullin has access to 224 electoral votes; if he gets access to 46 more electoral votes, he can get on the infobox as well. JC · Talk · Contributions 21:56, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
- Well, of course. I get that that is what you're saying. But take a look at my argument: there are logical, and practical, reasons why the "top four" are separated from more minor parties like Castle's. It's just that there isn't a most difficult thing to get on the ballot in those many states, and the currency isn't that high. But, if you go back to my other points above, it is clear, from previous and current discussion, that most people, if not a vast majority, believe that only on-ballot states (i.e. no write-ins) count for the requirement of 270. Thanks for taking this into consideration.198.84.229.179 (talk) 00:03, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
As a resident of California, if I were to gain write-in ballot access for the California gubernatorial election, 2018, I could theoretically be elected Governor (and use my WP experience to engage in unforeseen Wikipuffery for my WP article for my glorious reign), but does that mean I get to be included in the infobox for that article even though I wouldn't included in major polls or meet the 5% threshold? I think not. While I will admit to supporting one of the major candidates in the upcoming election, I'm 100% for Stein and Johnson's inclusion on the infobox because they have ballot access in enough states to theoretically win the Presidency. We're talking about the biggest event in American politics, the Presidential election, and no write-in candidate will win, especially since Castle is not beating or even meeting Johnson's or Stein's numbers. Taking Clinton and Trump aside, I would be willing to consider Castle's inclusion and perhaps even advocate for it in the infobox if he were polling equal to or above the major third-party candidates, but since he is not meeting any metric of 270+ EV ballot access, 5% in the polls or at a level reasonably equal to Stein or Johnson, he should not be included. The write-in vote on such a major, nationwide election has not decided or changed the outcome, and I fear it will lead to further muddiness and undue weight if we allow candidates with "theoretical theoreticals" access to the infobox without earning it through solid criteria.--Guiletheme (talk) 19:56, 24 September 2016 (UTC)
- There are few candidates who manage to attain Write-In or Ballot Access to (270) Electoral Votes in any of our Presidential Elections, as it stands now the grand total including McMullin is only (6), just as it was in 2012, and if a person is truly able to cast a valid vote for a candidate in a State, whether by checking off a box on the ballot or writing in their name by hand, I don't believe there should be any difference in recognition. They are not liable to do nearly as well, that is true, but it remains with Write-Ins that a voter can vote for them, and by extension they could earn electors in those States. There is no escaping that fact, even when factoring in probabilities, and objectively it is the right decision to include them. However you are right in that this would not carry over to articles not involving the Electoral College, and indeed a different metric might need to be found to make it more fair for all the Parties involved (potentially a combination of polls and existing Party Status). There isn't a clear method presently. --Ariostos (talk) 00:17, 25 September 2016 (UTC)
- It seems you are putting too much focus on the ability to vote for a candidate, and the potential number of electoral votes represented. The threshold is meant to measure viability or strength of a campaign. Other measures, such as funds raised/spent, popularity in polls, and media exposure, all have limitations in their ability to be fairly applied across diverse campaigns. The measure of ballot lines achieved is a relatively neutral way to gauge campaign organization and ability to mobilize forces in an election. Write-in filings are a much lower bar, and don't demonstrate the ability to score points in a national election. Bcharles (talk) 05:16, 25 September 2016 (UTC)
- I was trying to make a point about undue weight with my theoretical gubernatorial candidacy and I think the electoral college makes undue weight even more of an issue with electoral college based elections, since if a candidate doesn't advertise or have high name recognition, the only other way an average voter can discover they are running is by seeing their name on the ballot. A grand compromise might be to have tiers in the infobox as follows:
- Candidates appearing on ballots in all 50 states + DC (Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump)
- Candidates with ballot access to 270 or more electoral votes (Gary Johnson and Jill Stein)
- Candidates with write-in access to 270 or more electoral votes (Darrell Castle and Evan McMullin)
- I would think this satisfies Wikipedia policies on due and undue weight. And to be blunt, I don't think Castle or McMullin's achievement of being eligible for 270 electoral votes through write-ins is even equal to Stein and Johnson receiving ballot access in states where they can reach 270 electoral votes. However, it would give readers quick information as to which candidates are theoretically eligible to win and make things more reference-based than popularity-based and definitely not advocacy-based, which this article has done a good job of avoiding.--Guiletheme (talk) 05:59, 25 September 2016 (UTC)
- That seems like a good idea. Though Johnson does have all 538 votes in his pocket, I don't think he should be listed on top, with Clinton and Trump. It's easy enough for a generationally popular nominee like him to collect that amount, especially considering the perceived flaws of the Democrats and Republicans. And then, of course, I'd still oppose the inclusion of Castle and McMullin. If there continues to be a deadlock, as exists currently, and absolutely no solution is in sight, I'd support your idea. 198.84.229.179 (talk) 00:33, 2 October 2016 (UTC)
- I would list Johnson alongside Clinton and Trump, because he does appear on the ballot in every state and Washington, D.C. JC · Talk · Contributions 06:07, 25 September 2016 (UTC)
You may as well leave Castle & McMullin in the infobox, since they (along with Johnson & Stein) are going to be excluded after the election is held. Leaving them there for 6 more weeks, should do little harm. GoodDay (talk) 14:59, 25 September 2016 (UTC)
- I agree 125% with this statement, why are people making such a huge fuss over nothing? If the candidate can achieve 270 EVs through whatever process then they have a shot (WP:NPOV), does this mean it will work though? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 16:41, 26 September 2016 (UTC)
- Okay; then what do you say that they don't come? And you're calling this situation "nothing".198.84.229.179 (talk) 22:38, 26 September 2016 (UTC)
NOTE: There is IP (198.84.229.179) who is vandalizing this thread with legitimate-sounding edit summaries. If you have participated in this thread, please verify your edits. It looks like sections by XavierGreen, Prcc27, Antony–22 and myself have been effected. Sparkie82 (t•c) 04:03, 27 September 2016 (UTC)
- User Ramires451 is also vandalizing this talk page. Sparkie82 (t•c) 04:30, 27 September 2016 (UTC)
- Sorry about that. I'm new here. I was just trying to fix some issues regarding the spacing before some entries in this article. It sometimes seemed a bit weird when read from the outside. I wasn't trying to vandalize this page, but just some mistakes. I hope (I think) that they're fixed. Again, sorry; I had made those edits out of good faith, and I will avoid making such intrusions. If there's something I've brought up that you'd like to fix, though, please do so.198.84.229.179 (talk) 22:08, 28 September 2016 (UTC)
- I will ask this time; is it ok if I try to attempt some of the tab-ins which look weirdly constructed? If not, I'll leave those decisions up to you.198.84.229.179 (talk) 22:08, 28 September 2016 (UTC)
- Changing indent levels to be more consistent is routine refactoring and is permitted. I do it myself sometimes. I'd avoid changing the paragraph breaks within a comment, though. Antony–22 (talk⁄contribs) 02:52, 29 September 2016 (UTC)
- Alright, fair enough. That sounds good. It just seemed unusual that people would sometimes indent it backwards two, or move it forward by three for no reason. But thanks! 198.84.229.179 (talk) 01:10, 1 October 2016 (UTC)
- Those changes were wholesale changes to the wording of comments, and inserting signatures in the middle of people's comments to conflate attribution, not just formating. Sparkie82 (t•c) 17:32, 29 September 2016 (UTC)
- I do apologize for that. I won't do it anymore. Again, sorry. I didn't know that there were rules regarding that. I thought we could change, for example, how you misspelt "formatting, above". Thanks for telling me, though. 198.84.229.179 (talk) 01:10, 1 October 2016 (UTC)
For all intents and purposes, we should include every candidate that has ballot or write-in access to at least 270 electoral votes until after Election Day. In advance, I would like to say that we should keep all candidates that receive at least one electoral vote or register at least 1% of the national vote. JC · Talk · Contributions 06:58, 29 September 2016 (UTC)
- That's pretty much agreed. I do, however, remember the criteria, pre-election, to be at 270 'on-ballot' votes, counted, only. And, afterwards, the criteria for 2012 – not that it mattered – was one or more electoral votes, from what I know. 198.84.229.179 (talk) 01:14, 1 October 2016 (UTC)
- An attempt was made on 20:00, 23 August 2016 to add Castle to the infobox. It was immediately reverted on 21:30, 24 August 2016 and a discussion has been ongoing ever since but there is no consensus to add him. Therefore, don't try to put him back in. Sparkie82 (t•c) 16:01, 29 September 2016 (UTC)
- Also, an administrative action has been filed against those who keep adding him back in without consensus. Sparkie82 (t•c) 16:07, 29 September 2016 (UTC)
- @Sparkie82: You were the one that removed Castle at 14:30 on 24 August 2016 without discussing your edit even though a discussion was already going on at the talk page. It usually isn't a good idea to revert someone without discussing it at the talk especially given how many people voiced support for the edit you reverted. So please don't call it an "attempt to add Castle" when you were the one that attempted to remove him after a unanimous decision at the talk page was made to include him. Nobody came to the talk page to defend removing Castle until 5 September (a week and a half after the unanimous decision). It is quite clear that in this discussion users either support using write-in access as criteria i.e. both Castle and McMullin would be included or users support only using ballot access as criteria i.e. neither would be included. Your edit removing Castle but not McMullin goes against both arguments on this talk page and therefore it did not have consensus so I reverted you. Until the unanimous consensus in August is overridden, please do not remove candidates from the infobox or else you might be the one that will need administrative action. Prcc27🌍 (talk) 17:26, 29 September 2016 (UTC)
- I sure don't think any of those ideas are needed, as Castle is currently in the page – but not McMullin. Again, I am about to voice my support for only Clinton, Trump, Johnson, and Stein on there. I think the majority with only 'ballot access' is just a natural cut-off. 198.84.229.179 (talk) 01:10, 1 October 2016 (UTC)
- Put Castle back in already, he has access to well over 270 EVs to win. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 16:10, 29 September 2016 (UTC)
- @Prcc27: Someone tried to add Castle about 35 hours into that late-August discussion and I reverted it. Many others here have reverted the addition of Castle. Many have voiced opposition to adding Castle, yet some still try to add him to the
article infobox. The reason that write-ins are not part of the criteria for inclusion in the infobox is because all it takes in most cases to get write-in status is to just file a form. This is why write-ins were rejected when the criteria for infobox inclusion in presidential election articles was originally establisted here. But of course, this is about the fourth time we've been over all of this. Sparkie82 (t•c) 17:51, 29 September 2016 (UTC)
- Yes, we have done it very many times. But we aren't seeing the review here, yet. 198.84.229.179 (talk) 01:10, 1 October 2016 (UTC)
The Constitution and Justice Parties were both included in the infobox before the 2012 election despite needing write-in access, reflecting the actual consensus at the time.
I feel like we're not getting anywhere with this (very long) unstructured conversation. Perhaps we should set up a formal RfC and be settle this once and for all (until 2020). Antony–22 (talk⁄contribs) 20:44, 1 October 2016 (UTC)
- So, in that case, can we continue with the indenting? I think a few more comments right here would be okay. 198.84.229.179 (talk) 00:33, 2 October 2016 (UTC)
- Castle in not currently in the infobox. There is clearly no consensus to add Castle or other write-in candidates to the infobox. An attempt was made to add Castle to the infobox on Aug 23 at 735891756, which was immediately reverted at 736056459 and the addition of Castle has been challenged/discussed ever since without reaching consensus - do not reinstate any challenged edits Sparkie82 (t•c) 23:15, 1 October 2016 (UTC)
- There was no consensus to remove him either. JC · Talk · Contributions 23:21, 1 October 2016 (UTC)
- Does it really flippin' matter anymore? Any formal RfC would take a month to run and longer then that to close. By that time it will be the actual election and all the third party candidates would likely be kicked out of the infobox for not receiving anywhere near the necessary percentage of the popular vote to remain. This back and forth has turned into a quagmire. Just leave the infobox alone. It has absorbed enough of everyone's time as it is already. --Majora (talk) 23:24, 1 October 2016 (UTC)
- I agree, but just because you're right doesn't mean you should really enforce any closure on this topic's discussion. For some reason, people are wrangling all over a complete non-issue. Then again, I'll admit that I participated quite a bit, and the page's edits have stagnated before it actually developed a strong opinion on that idea as well. So, if people really want to debate about it, they have the right. I'm nonetheless standing firm on my position, though, as it only makes sense that, if any third parties are included, it should just be the Libertarians and Greens. 198.84.229.179 (talk) 00:33, 2 October 2016 (UTC)
- Well, kindly speaking, that doesn't look like the consensus right now. I know that there are a lot of editors who would like Castle included, but my view is that this page should really reflect real-life developments, and not just a generally meaningless number. When there are no responses to any of my posts, the situation pretty much stagnates. I understand the subjectivity of the 'major' label, but what other criteria could we use, in order to ensure that the infobox representation is fair? I never actually went into the article and modified the status of such a contentious issue. More importantly, though, I think that the best way would be to discard with the current standard. Of course, it will be very difficult to achieve consensus, as we have seen here. But I think most of us would agree that Gary Johnson does not belong with the Democrats and Republicans, at least this year. If it was Ross Perot or perhaps even Ralph Nader, then the circumstances could maybe allow for a row of three. But, though many people in the news talk about him, as well as Jill Stein – to a lesser degree, of course – their influence on this election is minuscule. Furthermore, even if third parties are headed for a historic success this year, neither of them will actually tip a state, or even break into the double digits and produce a different victor. And the others, mostly Darrell Castle, from the discussions on this page, are, still, less important. I don't think you could find a single mainstream article – NYT, WP, WSJ, CNN, ABC, NBC, Fox, Britain's BBC, or anything like that – that mentions him. Even McMullin, the only one who's gotten consistent coverage, was in the news for just a few days or so. Sites like Vox, Slate, Haaretx, Al-Jazeera, and the dozens of smaller outlets probably don't have any words dedicated to them, either. And I haven't seen any uniformly recognized opinion poll – national, state, or otherwise – that includes anyone other than Clinton, Trump, Johnson, or Stein. Ballot access is just not a useful measure of a candidate's real value to the campaign – if the rules were tighter, the Greens and Libertarians would have had a much harder time getting past the halfway mark, while a theoretically unpopular candidate like Michael Bloomberg could easily build the connections necessary for doing so. Just because some person could win the election doesn't mean they'll get anywhere close – I'd say that Castle's chances of winning a state are somewhere around a ten-thousandth of a percent. So, to reiterate, my feeling is that frequently visited Wikipedia articles like this one should be very accurate, and I really don't feel that 'ballot access' is a good way to measure any person's support, or whatever it is that we are using for the infobox. Many users have rightfully brought up the issue of undue weight, and that is something that I'm dedicated to fixing. As of right now, I don't have particularly good ideas as to what concrete benchmarks we should be setting for nominees in any sections on this page – or future ones, for that matter – which is why I'm in favor of leaving the situation as it is, for the month that's left. Meanwhile, I'll hopefully come up with something that everyone here can stomach, and I'd encourage all of you to do the same, as well. You probably all know my stance on this by now, so I don't think any further repetitions will be needed. I have one final note, concerning my hope that you can reflect on my concerns, and at least understand, if not accept, why I don't think Gary Johnson should go on the top, or why Darrell Castle should not be in there at all. My position would go the same way for every such situation that arises in the future. I make my decisions not based on political ideology, implicit bias, or similarly egregious reasons, and the other editors have done a great job of maintaining the neutrality of every discussion here. We should base our opposing stances on merit, and solve them by their popularity – as well as the significance of each particular judge, and their argument's legitimate validity. Finally, my foremost priority at this forum will be placing an interest in the proposals that are eventually put forward, as the ultimate objective is to find a common ground where we can all happily stand – for 2020, and beyond. 198.84.229.179 (talk) 17:37, 2 October 2016 (UTC)
- It's the media who decides who is going to be in the polls. It's not fully representative because it does not present all of the options available. They were late in adding Johnson and Stein, and they are choosing not to include anyone else, and when the third party candidates garner between 10–20% of the vote in the polls, their influence is not minuscule. It's like expecting Fox News to give Obama and Romney equal treatment. You're just not going to get it. JC · Talk · Contributions 18:14, 2 October 2016 (UTC)
- It's WP:SPECULATION to assume that a third party won't tip a state. In fact, Gary Johnson polled at 24% in his home state of New Mexico and was just 2.2% shy of being within the margin of error of Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump. Furthermore, if he were to win NM and neither Clinton nor Trump won 270+ EVs, Johnson would have a good chance of being elected president. Prcc27🌍 (talk) 18:46, 2 October 2016 (UTC)
- I see your point, Prcc27. I didn't think that Johnson would be so high up before reading FiveThirtyEight's [article] today. But, still, I meant that, at least in my eyes, the chance is very small. And, sorry if this offends you, but common sense really dictates that Johnson isn't going to be on the same stage as Clinton or Trump. Not that I support his or Jill Stein's exclusion from the debate, but perhaps that would be a better gauge of a concrete criterion that could be used. And the 'third-party debates' noted on the website will only invite those four, so I'd be okay with their ideas on this page, too. And, of course, I'm starting to recognize the value of your argument. Still, though, I recommend that you carefully consider my suggestions. 198.84.229.179 (talk) 21:39, 2 October 2016 (UTC)
Are we sure that these two candidates should be included in the list of major candidates? Stein and Johnson are both on the ballot on enough states to win, and both are pretty widely covered in national polls. But Castle and McMullin don't seem to be major enough to warrant a place in the top section. It seems to me that they should stay in the Major third parties and independents section, but a place at the top makes the infobox unnecessarily cluttered. Should remove them from the infobox?
pluma♫ ♯ 01:09, 28 September 2016 (UTC)
- Actually, there has been some chatter about McMullin and Utah. Potentially playing a spoiler role of some sort due to the Mormon disdain for Trump in the normally very red state. This is why we include people who have enough ballot access, including write-ins, to mathematically make 270 electoral votes. This is only pre-election. Post election has a different consensus. That of percentage of the popular vote gained. --Majora (talk) 01:16, 28 September 2016 (UTC)
- I think we should merge this section with that of "write-ins" and "infobox inclusion, again". What say you? 198.84.229.179 (talk) 00:18, 29 September 2016 (UTC)
- They should be removed, unless we want to include all 300 people running for President. There should only be 4 in the infobox because there are only 4 in enough ballots for 270. No write-ins. KingAntenor (talk) 16:52, 29 September 2016 (UTC)
- Castle and McMullen are not in the infobox. There was a discussion at as to whether or not they should be added, but there is no consensus to add them. You can discuss it there if have something new to add to the discussion. Sparkie82 (t•c) 20:06, 29 September 2016 (UTC)
- They are indeed in the infobox. Clinton, Trump, and Johnson are on the top row, and Stein, Castle, and McMullin are on the bottom row. (I have no preference whether they are in or out, however.) → Michael J Ⓣ Ⓒ Ⓜ 00:09, 30 September 2016 (UTC)
- Castle and McMullen will not appear on the ballot in enough states to win. Trump, Clinton, Johnson, and Stein will be on the ballot in nearly all states and have the potential to win without needing to rely solely on write-in access. Castle and McMullen should be removed from the infobox. BrendonTheWizard (talk) 02:58, 30 September 2016 (UTC)
- Castle and McMullen should be included until we have consensus if we are going to delete them or not. Quite frankly, I'm sick of everyone making a mountain out a molehill on the inclusion of candidates that will have a marginal impact at best according to the polls. I'm fine either way with their inclusion or deletion since the next president is either named Hillary Clinton or Donald Trump.--Guiletheme (talk) 16:40, 30 September 2016 (UTC)
- McMullen was deemed to not have the EVs needed to win even with write ins so he was removed, Castle though is another story. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 16:53, 30 September 2016 (UTC)
- No, I think. It really isn't, of course, but I think that someone this unimportant, like a no one-knows-who Darrell Castle, has no reason to be put in. Let us use logic, and say that only the candidates who are able to win, without needing the write-ins, are included. But, then again, of course, they aren't disputing that with an opinion, as to who is getting on there. Stein and Johnson are featured in virtually – really, virtually – every single poll. Castle, and McMullin? Never, as far as I know – except for a few internal polls that might have been conducted. I lost the link to those, though. 198.84.229.179 (talk) 00:55, 1 October 2016 (UTC)
- It's highly likely that Johnson, Stein, Castle & McMullin will all be excluded, after November 8. Having them all there for these last 5 weeks, won't do any harm. GoodDay (talk) 10:14, 1 October 2016 (UTC)
- If a candidate or candidates receives at least 5% of the vote or a single electoral vote, those candidates should remain post-election. JC · Talk · Contributions 12:22, 1 October 2016 (UTC)
- Was that page with the references supposed to be here? It did take up a lot of space. And we need to combine this section with three and four, anyways. 198.84.229.179 (talk) 00:33, 2 October 2016 (UTC)
- If a candidate is legally viable, they should be in the infobox. Period. That includes write-ins. I don't think there's any argument about this. Real contenders should appear. If you get universal ballot access, you get to be in the top row. This is by far the most sensible way to do things. Determining their "major" status and polling numbers has nothing to do with it. You may be correct in saying Darrel Castle has no shot, but that's your opinion - there's no 100% objective standard to determine this. DaCashman (talk) 06:09, 2 October 2016 (UTC)
- Agreed. JC · Talk · Contributions 06:46, 2 October 2016 (UTC)
- There is consensus for Castle to be included. I feel like people should stop removing him and he should be re-added. There is no consensus for the status quo version of the infobox because we already agreed that Castle would be included and that Johnson would be in the 1st row. Prcc27🌍 (talk) 09:18, 2 October 2016 (UTC)
- I think Castle should be included, even though it is extremely unlikely he will remain there past election day. McMullin currently is not on the ballot in enough states. I believe after election day only Trump, Clinton, and Johnson will still be there, but if they've got a shot at winning 270 EVs, however miniscule it is, they should be included. MB298 (talk) 20:23, 2 October 2016 (UTC)
- Explain to me how Castle remains but McMullin cannot. Castle doesn't have 270, but the write-ins push him over, so does McMullin. JC · Talk · Contributions 20:28, 2 October 2016 (UTC)
- My opinion here aligns with that of JCRules. 198.84.229.179 (talk) 21:24, 2 October 2016 (UTC)
- I agree with the idea of "If a candidate or candidates receives at least 5% of the vote or a single electoral vote, those candidates should remain post-election," perhaps even lower. So long as they actually appeared on the ballot in enough states to theoretically win, were included in the national polls during the general, and/or received a noteworthy amount of the vote once the election took place, they should be currently present and remain in the infobox even after the general election takes place as they noticeably have at least some impact on the election, certainly more than the third party candidates have in the past. The same cannot be said for Castle. BrendonTheWizard (talk) 02:39, 4 October 2016 (UTC)
@Yuri Alexeyevich Gagarin: When McMullin appears on the ballot in Colorado, New Mexico, Utah, and etc., it will not be saying "Independence Party of Minnesota". Instead, he will be on those ballots as an independent. It is best to refer to him as an independent on the infobox. JC · Talk · Contributions 17:53, 3 October 2016 (UTC)
- Oh, I see. Yuri Alexeyevich Gagarin (talk) 17:56, 3 October 2016 (UTC)
Skidmore took a really good shot of Trump, in my opinion.
It's high quality, and he looks very good here. The current picture is 1.5 years old, and isn't relevant to everything that's been going on with Trump right now. He's a presidential candidate now. So are we doing this, or does someone actually have a problem with this? User1937 (talk) 08:37, 8 October 2016 (UTC)
- Agreed, that this is an appropriate and VERY recent photo of Trump. It was taken less than a week ago (and about 100 miles north of me, which is kind of cool but irrelevant). Anyway, the photo is current, it is realistic in that it captures some of Trump's distinctive skin coloring variegation (I am a Trump supporter and one of the 5 souls who actually am willing to list my name as a WikiProject Donald Trump member, so I am not making that remark with disparagement.) Trump looks his age here, which is an important concern in this election, as age and health are concerns for both the Democrat and GOP candidates. All that aside, the photo is well composed, in that Trump isn't tilting his head at an odd angle, doesn't have a podium microphone obscuring half his face, or any of the other problematic issues that we have found in considering what image to use for the infobox. Good find, User1937! I don't know if we'll be able to effect any actual change, as I spent some time last night on the Trump image discussion page, which has been quibbling about nuances of different photos for over two months with no end in sight. For what it is worth, I agree with you and would like to see this image of Trump used for the infobox.--FeralOink (talk) 09:22, 8 October 2016 (UTC)
- Thank you, I agree! User1937 (talk) 14:17, 8 October 2016 (UTC)
- I've mostly stayed away from the discussion of particular Trump images, but this one looks to be superior to the others. If it can be used without first requiring a month's worth of discussion, I say use it. If it would require any significant portion of the remaining time before the election to agree, then any new image discussion is pointless regardless of quality. 64.105.98.115 (talk) 13:00, 8 October 2016 (UTC)
- Thank you, I think so too. User1937 (talk) 14:17, 8 October 2016 (UTC)
Feel free to add your comments. Hopefully we can finally reach consensus on a new photo, as this one is very good in my opinion! User1937 (talk) 14:17, 8 October 2016 (UTC)
- This is the best available portrait I've seen so far, and we've all seen many. Straight, no mic in the way, as natural an expression as we'll ever get. I've cropped the portrait here, and click this link for how the infobox looks with this picture. Unless legitimate opposition is voiced, I suggest we change the portrait in a few days. Abjiklɐm (tɐlk) 00:11, 9 October 2016 (UTC)
- Comment – There is widespread opposition to this picture at Talk:Donald Trump#New wonderful photo, so it doesn't look so "wonderful" to many editors and we should refrain from using it here. Better have a consistent picture across all Trump articles. — JFG talk 13:07, 9 October 2016 (UTC)
- So it is. Too bad, let's just see how that other discussion ends and follow that consensus. Abjiklɐm (tɐlk) 16:41, 9 October 2016 (UTC)
Mike Maturen of the American Solidarity Party now has write-in access in enough Illinois counties to theoretically win the 20 electoral votes. This content:
|American Solidarity Party
|Mike Maturen
sales professional and magician from Michigan
|Juan Muñoz
of Texas
|9
(192)
|Colorado[1]
(Alabama, Georgia, Iowa, Kentucky, Maryland, Michigan, Minnesota, New Hampshire, New Jersey, Ohio, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, Texas, Vermont)[2][3][4][5]
should be changed to this:
|American Solidarity Party
|Mike Maturen
sales professional and magician from Michigan
|Juan Muñoz
of Texas
|9
(203)
|Colorado[1]
(Alabama, Georgia, Illinois (Cook, Kane, Sangamon, and Dupage counties), Iowa, Kentucky, Maryland, Michigan, Minnesota, New Hampshire, New Jersey, Ohio, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, Texas, Vermont)[2][3][4][5]
Note the addition of Illinois and its respective counties, and the new total of electoral votes.
Dhalsim2 (talk) 15:37, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
- Not done: The page's protection level has changed since this request was placed. You should now be able to edit the page yourself. If you still seem to be unable to, please reopen the request with further details. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 08:19, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
- Done I added IL for several candidates that have filed with most counties. Listing specific counties is not needed. Bcharles (talk) 17:47, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
I request that the write-in status for Rocky De La Fuente be updated to include the states of California, Kansas, Maryland, Nebraska, Virginia, and Washington. I also request that Oregon be added to every candidate's write in totals.
Rocky De La Fuente's website has a map that shows his ballot access, as well as current write-in access and "anticipated write-in access", which may or may not be approved in the future. The states listed above, including Oregon, are listed as write-ins, meaning that they are confirmed, or else they would have been included in the "anticipated" column. Also, if you look at the totals for Jill Stein, Darrell Castle, and Evan McMullin, their write-in status is based off their campaign websites' official totals. I am asking that we use the same standard for that of Mr. De La Fuente.
Also, I emailed the Oregon SoS office about their laws regarding write-ins, because I had read conflicting reports about the paperwork. They replied saying that there is so paperwork needed to file, only in the event that a write-in wins. Therefore, every candidate is considered to have write-in status in Oregon.
199.120.101.23 (talk) 00:38, 19 October 2016 (UTC)
- @199.120.101.23: Please post the specific link from De La Fuente's website, as i was unable to find it. Although some candidates may only show one source for their ballot access, all candidates are checked against other available sources by multiple editors.
- Thank you for reporting the response from OR SoS. Ballot Access News states that presidential write-ins must file by 11 days before the election, and that OR won't count these unless the total write-ins outnumber the top candidates vote. Bcharles (talk) 04:09, 19 October 2016 (UTC)
NOTICE: This thread was prematurely manually archived at this edit: Sparkie82 (t•c) 09:05, 18 November 2016 (UTC)
Who removed the day countdown on the infobox? (Sorry, I couldn't find the value to put it back)— JJBers (talk) 18:49, 24 October 2016 (UTC)
- I'm guessing the guy who is edit Waring with me (Which I will only do what is allowed, 1 revision per 24 hours). He undid everything back to my edit so everything after that was also taken away.LuckyLag360 (talk) 19:17, 24 October 2016 (UTC)
- I found it and added it back. For future reference the code is:
(-2858 days from now) LuckyLag360 (talk) 19:24, 24 October 2016 (UTC)
- Do we not trust readers to figure out how far away the election is on their own? Most people have calendars either physically or on their phones. 331dot (talk) 10:57, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
- Many are not smart enough especially Trump himself who thinks election day is November 28th. So no I dont trust voters.LuckyLag360 (talk) 15:51, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
- If people can figure out how to type in a web address and get to this page I think they can figure out how to determine how far away the election is. Is such a thing a standard component of this type of article? 331dot (talk) 16:07, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
- I'd beg the differ but to answer your question I have no idea. It was on this page before I started editing. The guy asked about it being removed. It was removed by vandals. So I added it back. If you know something I dont about it on why it shouldnt be there feel free to list it here and remove it from the article. Thanks LuckyLag360 (talk) 16:14, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
- The person who last removed it (Impru20) was not a "vandal" as far as I can see; They claim a policy reason for removing it, though I'm not sure what that is. 331dot (talk) 16:37, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
- 40 percent of American voters are morons. —MartinZ02 (talk) 17:25, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
- "Hi, I'm MartinZ02. I live in Stockholm, Sweden, and I spend my free time playing video games. I'm 14 years old.". Don't go making assumptions of bad faith or attacks, including of the American electorate. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:46, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
- This isn't about whether or not people can figure out how many more days there are until election day, it's about making it easier for the readers so then they don't have to figure it out on there own (and possibly make a mistake). It really doesn't hurt to put the countdown in the infobox. What specific policy it even violates is what I would like to know. Prcc27🌍 (talk) 18:28, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
- I agree. —MartinZ02 (talk) 18:36, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
- @Muboshgu: I'm pretty sure no one felt insulted from what I just wrote. Also, even if what I just did actually counts as assuming bad faith, you still shouldn't act uncivil. —MartinZ02 (talk) 18:36, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
- I did. I think it's uncivil to declare "40 percent of American voters are morons". – Muboshgu (talk) 18:39, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
- Everyone should note the reason for adding this content is not because we think American voters are morons, We find it will be a useful addition to the article. If it is against policy explain and it will be removed. If there is another reason to remove it, explain and it will be removed. Thanks LuckyLag360 (talk) 19:11, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
- (ec) I honestly don't know what policy might support keeping this out(I pinged the user who said there was one for comment) but it not being harmful is a poor argument in favor. Readers potentially making mistakes with their own math or calendars shouldn't be our responsibility; readers should have a certain level of competence. 331dot (talk) 19:13, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
- WP:COMPETENCE only applies to editors. —MartinZ02 (talk) 19:23, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
- Perhaps the letter of it does, but the spirit of it should be relevant to readers as well; otherwise we would write articles as the Simple English Wikipedia does. 331dot (talk) 19:26, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
- it not being harmful is not the argument. The argument is its a useful addition to the article. LuckyLag360 (talk) 21:36, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
- Prcc27 says above "It really doesn't hurt to put the countdown in the infobox." It's part of the argument, at least. 331dot (talk) 21:41, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
My argument is that we shouldn't exclude it just because people don't like it. But keep in mind that both links are just essays. Prcc27🌍 (talk) 21:50, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
- I don't dislike it, I think it is unnecessary since it is very easy to figure out on one's own, just as we write articles here assuming a certain level of competence and reading ability. I certainly am not going to edit war over it, but that's how I feel. I do thank everyone for commenting thus far. 331dot (talk) 21:53, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
- A lot of readers that aren't going to figure it out on their own (because why would they take the time to count how many days there are until election day?) might find the information useful even if searching for that information was not their immediate intention. This has nothing to do with competence nor reading ability. Prcc27🌍 (talk) 22:01, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
- I agree. Jay Coop · Talk · Contributions 22:02, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
First, I'm inclined to argue for inclusion here if only because the arguments against being comprehensive here seem weak. However, a couple thinking-out-loud/too-much points: When we say "xx days from now," does that timer start at 12:00 Western Standard Time or Eastern - so if someone checks this page on November 7th at 1:00 AM, might it still say "2 days from now" because of time zone differences? Could that (very slight) risk of misleading some people outweigh the benefits of having the timer in the first place? Perhaps a countdown clock in hours would mitigate this, yet this might resemble a news ticker and look a bit unencyclopedic. Also, does anyone know of a precedent for a timer in any other election articles? And FWIW, there is also WP:EXCESSDETAIL. Thanks, <> Alt lys er svunnet hen (talk) 22:53, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
- Election day starts on the East Coast so the clock should be set on Eastern Time if it isn't already. Prcc27🌍 (talk) 00:59, 26 October 2016 (UTC)
- The template might actually be set on UTC time so unless that can be fixed, I'm against its inclusion. Prcc27🌍 (talk) 01:03, 26 October 2016 (UTC)
- Why does UTC determine whether you want it included or not, Im sorry I dont quite understand. LuckyLag360 (talk) 01:07, 26 October 2016 (UTC)
- Because a countdown linked to a European timezone for an American election is pretty useless. Prcc27🌍 (talk) 04:05, 26 October 2016 (UTC)
- Good point I was not aware of that. If thats the case I support removing it unless it can be in an American time zone (preferably eastern time). LuckyLag360 (talk) 16:22, 26 October 2016 (UTC)
It's bad enough that CNN uses an annoying count-down clock for everything politics. Must we dumb down this article with one of those clocks, as well? GoodDay (talk) 16:25, 26 October 2016 (UTC)
- I dont buy the dumb down argument, regardless no one is going to be reading the countdown clock unless we can get an American time on it instead of european. LuckyLag360 (talk) 16:32, 26 October 2016 (UTC)