Talk:Religious ecstasy
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st ffrancis of itay--Juliagmandela12 (talk) 18:13, 5 October 2022 (UTC)==Untitled== There should be something in this article critical to the experience of religious ecstacy, stating that there is no medical or scientific evidence to suggest that it is anything but delusion and superstition. While it's very thorough in showing examples of religious ecstacy, I can't help but think the article is missing without pointing o--Juliagmandela12 (talk) 18:13, 5 October 2022 (UTC)ut that it is considered (medically, at least) to be an entirely psychosomatic condition. JF Mephisto 13:09, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
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How do you mean "delusion and superstition"? I agree that a paragraph on the modern psychological view of religious ecstasy would be a worthwhile addition, but that phrase is generally used for more vague beliefs, not actual well-documented phenomena such as this - Pthag 07:40, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
- You mistake me. I don't point dispute that people experience religious ecstacy, but dispute that it is anything but entirely psychological in origin. This article seems to blur the line between the existence of a psychological condition known as religious ecstacy and the existence of a truly divinely-inspired religious ecstacy. It should be made clear that the first is a psychological reaction to hyper-suggestability and 'wanting it' and the second has no basis in fact. JF Mephisto 18:08, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
Mephisto, "delusion and superstition" and "a psychological reaction to hyper-suggestability" are just labels that cannot explain the phenomenon of ecstasy. We can label every human experience as a "psychological" or "psychosomatic" reaction or condition, but these labels do not tell us how and why these experiences occur. As far as we do not have a good scientific theory about ecstasy, the article reflects different opinions and beliefs. Maybe it should also mention your viewpoint, but not as an established truth, but as one of several ways people think. --Hele 7 22:05, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
I think some mention might be made of the use of "ecstasy" by some existentialist theologians such as Paul Tillich, although their use of the word represents a milder sense than the others in the article.--Will3935 00:48, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Definitions and "diagnostic criteria" of ecstasy vary among authors. Probably the word "ecstasy" is used for several different states of consciousness. --Hele 7 23:37, 25 July 2006 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by HeIe 7 (talk • contribs) --Juliagmandela12 (talk) 18:13, 5 October 2022 (UTC)--~--18:13, 5 October 2022 (UTC)~~--Juliagmandela12 (talk) 18:13, 5 October 2022 (UTC)--Juliagmandela12 (talk) 18:13, 5 October 2022 (UTC)--Juliagmandela12 (talk) 18:13, 5 October 2022 (UTC)--Juliagmandela12 (talk) 18:13, 5 October 2022 (UTC)--Juliagmandela12 (talk) 18:13, 5 October 2022 (UTC)--Juliagmandela12 (talk) 18:13, 5 October 2022 (UTC)--Juliagmandela12 (talk) 18:13, 5 October 2022 (UTC) Th--Juliagmandela12 (talk) 18:13, 5 October 2022 (UTC)e sentence "True religious ecstasy cannot be induced by natural means as can the trance-like state which is often called religious ecstasy. " is the crux of the problem here, as it clearly implies that because it can't be induced by natural means, that there is a supernatural cause. This sentence should at least to make clear that that opinion of what--Juliagmandela12 (talk) 18:13, 5 October 2022 (UTC)--Juliagmandela12 (talk) 18:13, 5 October 2022 (UTC)--Juliagmandela12 (talk) 18:13, 5 October 2022 (UTC)--Juliagmandela12 (talk) 18:13, 5 October 2022 (UTC) deliniates religious ecstasy from induced states is from one particular viewpoint, though I'd argue it should move away from that statement entirely. Milhous 08:09, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
- All the more because it doesn't even cite a single source. -- Consumed Crustacean | Talk | 08:14, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
- Just alike followers of many religions believe their understanding of the Divine to be the only truth and label different beliefs as "idolatry", "heresy" etc., they may also believe that the true religious ecstasy occurs only inside their religion and label similar phenomena outside their religion as "intoxication", "hysteria", "suggestion" etc. A neutral version of the sentence under discussion could be: "Some religious people hold the view that true religious ecstasy cannot be induced by natural means (i.e. by human activities) but occurs only in context of their religion as a gift from the supernatural being whom they worship." But probably such outside, relativistic and confession-invariant description will not satisfy most of those believers.
In 1925, James Leuba, an author far from cultural relativism, wrote: "Among most uncivilized populations, as among civilized peoples, certain ecstatic conditions are regarded as divine possession or as union with the Divine. These states are induced by means of drugs, by physical excitement, or by psychical means. But, however produced and at whatever level of culture they may be found, they possess certain common features which suggest even to the superficial observer some profound connection. Always described as delightful beyond expression, these ecstatic experiences end commonly in mental quiescence or even in total unconsciousness. Common features should not, however, lead to a disregard of dissemblances. The presence, for instance, of an ethical purpose places some of these states in a separate and higher class." (James H. Leuba, The Psychology of Religious Mysticism. p.8. Routledge, UK, 1999). As we can see, the difference is not in the ecstatic state itself, but in its interpretation and its placement into system of social values. In the same book, same page Leuba prepares his readers "... to recognize a continuity of impulse, of purpose, of form and of result between the ecstatic intoxication of the savage and the absorption in God of the Christian mystic." --Hele 7 13:21, 9 August 2006 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.235.68.75 (talk • contribs)
Some good first-hand descriptions of religious ecstasy are quoted in classic book by William James "The varieties of religious experience" and they could be linked to the article if copyright allows. E.g.: "Without any expectation of it, without ever having the thought in my mind that there was any such thing for me, without any recollection that I had ever heard the thing mentioned by any person in the world, the Holy Spirit descended upon me in a manner that seemed to go through me, body and soul. I could feel the impression, like a wave of electricity, going through and through me. Indeed, it seemed to come in waves and waves of liquid love; for I could not express it in any other way. It seemed like the very breath of God. I can recollect distinctly that it seemed to fan me, like immense wings. No words can express the wonderful love that was shed abroad in my heart. I wept aloud with joy and love; and I do not know but I should say I literally bellowed out the unutterable gushings of my heart. These waves came over me, and over me, and over me, one after the other, until I recollect I cried out, 'I shall die if these waves continue to pass over me.' I said, 'Lord, I cannot bear any more;' yet I had no fear of death. How long I continued in this state, with this baptism continuing to roll over me and go through me, I do not know." (from http://www.psywww.com/PSYRELIG/james/james9.htm#217) --Hele 7 13:21, 9 August 2006 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.235.68.75 (talk • contribs)
Joseph Smith, the LDS (Mormon) Church prophet could be added to this list as he claimed to see a vision of angels and the Father God as well as his son, Jesus Christ.
- The list of all religious people who have seen visions (or at least claimed to have) would be quite long.--Will3935 00:48, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- Visions and ecstasy are not the same. --Hele 7 23:37, 25 July 2006 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by HeIe 7 (talk • contribs)
"In everyday language, the word "ecstasy" denotes an intense, euphoric experience. For obvious reasons, it is rarely used in a scientific context; it is a concept that is extremely hard to define. Ecstasy-seeking religious movements have always existed, and they seem today to be as numerous as ever. There is perhaps no reason yet to abandon the concept entirely. I will not attempt to define the term ecstasy here, but I will say that I consider ecstasy, mysticism and trance to be partly overlapping concepts. In mystical experience, there is always an element of ecstasy, although the presence of this element is not, in itself, enough to justify calling an experience mystical. In trance, there is often, but not necessarily, an element of ecstasy. In the literature, trance has nonetheless often been used almost synonymously with ecstasy. Furthermore, an experience can be ecstatic without being either mystical or trance-like. An experience can also be ecstatic without having any religious connotation whatsoever." From article "Ecstasy from a Physiological Point of View" by Kaj Björkqvist . This collection of articles (SCRIPTA INSTITUTI DONNERIANI ABOENSIS XI: Religious Ecstasy. Based on Papers read at the Symposium on Religions Ecstasy held at Åbo, Finland, on the 26th-28th of August 1981. Edited by Nils G. Holm) could be added to article as a reference. Hele 7 20:35, 11 August 2006 (UTC)