Talk:Swaminarayan/Archive 1
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Just to remind all our good friends writing and reading this discussion that Bhagwan Swaminarayan was a nice guy, did lots of great work, and has been followed, in the past 200 years, by many millions of devotees and a few thousand sadhus. Thats a great achievement. Whether you believe him to be God, or a great human, is a belief, but that he was a positive force in this world, is a fact. As to all the other discussions about ISSO and BAPS and what-have-you, imho you people should attend a few assemblies of the 'other' camp / organization / sect. You'll probably realize - if you're honest enough - that its all the same. wildT 14:11, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
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I would just like to clear up one thing. ISSO is an organisation within the NarNarayan Dev Gadi (Amdavad) set up to improve satsang outside india. Basically Bhagwan Swaminarayan led a sect called the Uddhav Sampradaya. Now that Uddhav Sampradaya(known and referred to as Swaminarayan Sampradaya) was divided into 2 Gadis by Swaminarayan Bhagwan in Vadtal. The 2 Gadius are NarNarayan Dev Gadi (Amdavad) and LaxmiNarayan Dev Gadi (Vadtal).
I have proved BAPS to be false on many occasions but these people don't work on the basis of philosophy, they live according to hear say(from their gurus who are worshipped as god). So these people will not be able to answer back yet they will not be able to accept the truth also.
No need to attend assemblies to find out about honesty. If you believe in Swaminarayan Bhagwan then you follow the sect and rules established by himself(Uddhav Sampradaya). If you want to follow BAPS(which say they follow Swaminarayan Bhagwan - but in actual fact don't) then you follow the rules set up by the so called Gurus.
Finally to all BAPS devotees good luck in finding moksha(salvation) because according to the scriptures of the swaminarayan sampradaya you seem to be going in the opposite way. Im sure you can work out the rest.
Jai Swaminarayan
Haribhagat 15:47, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
READ IT ALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!**********************!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! it has significance to all beleivers of the Swaminarayan faith.
To start with, I BELIEVE in the Vadtal gadi and not BAPS. But no one on this discussion page has been able to STEADILY stay un-biased for his/or her particular sect. (NOT CULT -- get it right)
TAKE THE TIME TO READ THIS WHOLE INPUT BECAUSE I BELIEVE THAT IT WILL END THE BAD MOUTHING GOING ON HERE. OK I have read through all these posts and the same conclusion comes up everytime. NONE of us have he right to say that "he is LOWER than us" - or - "their reasoing is FLAWED." That is taking abav-avgun(fault finding) of a person, it doesn't matter if you are a satsangi(devotee) or a follower of another religion. No one has the right to say that they are right and everyone else is wrong becuase you are not Bhagwan(God). This article is getting way out of hand. It doens't matter from what part of the Swaminarayan religion that you are from, the moment you take abav-avgun of some then you have a permant scar on yourself (i dont care if you believe it or not, but if you are Swaminarayan (any Swaminarayan) and well versed in the many relgious scriptures as many of the ones that have "contributed" [b/c i should say "taken away from"] to this discussion are, believe in not taking abav-avgun. In other words, many, if not all of us that have written on this page beleive in not taking abav-avgun, whether you BELIEVE in Vadtal or FOLLOW BAPS).I AM GOING TO SAY THIS AGAIN SO THAT PEOPLE DONT FORGET, I BELIEVE IN THE VADTAL SAMPRADAY. So everyone just stop and think of what you have done. Some regard Pujya Pramukh Swami Maharaj in a bad way (not neccesarily BAD, but many are INDIRECTLY insulting a man of his stature, but i do not see how you can do that, go to the BAPS website (swaminarayan.org), or just google his name and you will not find one bad thing about him. {on the other hand you will find A LOT OF CONTROVERSY about the Vadtal sampraday. And i dont not deny that. It IS there and it HAS happened, and we in the Vadtal sampraday need to take reponsibilty for the actions of our santos, b/c i dont not believe it to be te work of rival sects, but that is what I think) Just look at the works Pramukh Swami Maharaj has done. The Akshardham CULTURAL complexes in Delhi, and Gandinagar. He was named one of the most influencial persons in the world, and has never hated against anyone. For example, after the terrorist attacks on the Gandinagar Akshardham complex a few yuears ago, the BAPS held a MULTI-religious (cultural) assembly just so that the akward. fragile balance in India and Pakistan would not turn into chaos. To those that have refered to Pujya Pramukh Swami Mahraj as 'this pramukh' or 'this baps' please out of respect for the others on this article do not demote anyone (i say 'demote' because that is clearly what you have done either directly or indirectly)(many have done it indirectly, but please stop). And to the arguement of adding MAHARAJ to a persons name -- to those people debating that i say that you are proposing a POINTLESS arguement. It does not matter what a person's title is, It is what you BELIEVE, not what "raj" or "haribhato" (to name some ppl in this disccusion). It doesn't matter what these people say. It is only what thier mind tells them, but if you want to go ahead and beleive them, then do not add to this discussion because obviously you dont have a point of view. Religion (in all parts of the world) is mainly about you and god not about RAJ, Haribhakto, Shah, Vivek, and then GOD. NO ---- God is placed before everyone else. And as i have seen, whoever's post it was, they "called out" (challenged) someone to defy them -- get this in your mind YOU are not GOD.) you have no right to challenge anyone to believe that you and only you are right. SO everyone that has taken all this abav-avgun on other peoples or sects of the Swaminarayan faith, believe what you want, but know that you have done something wrong b/c NO ONE is perfect.
Just to reiterate my point, I am a strongly proponent of the VADTAL sampraday, so i dont want anyone challening that this was more biased then most of the other pieces of garbage posted on this page. The BAPS believes in what they KNOW to be RIGHT and TRUE, and to them I say, "Good job" becuase many of the followers of the same gadi as me, we have not lived up to Swaminarayan Bhagwan's expectations. I would like to hear everyones comment but i do not want anyone to think that i am like user 'haribhagat' (who has posted in this article) and i am not "challenging anyone who disagrees!"
And to one and all good-night and
Jai SWAMINARAYAN.
email at vspam91@gmail.com (no spam please b/c this is my seondary email account)
Jai Swaminarayan,
Before I reply back to the post above I would like to point out that I have on a few occasions moved the post in question to the bottom of the page, however the person who has posted is adamant that it stays on the top(as he has reverted my actions), perhaps because he feels so strongly upon the issue.
Comment by vspam91@gmail.com(I do not know what else to call you) - To start with, I BELIEVE in the Vadtal gadi and not BAPS. But no one on this discussion page has been able to STEADILY stay un-biased for his/or her particular sect. (NOT CULT -- get it right)
I am assuming that when you say not cult, you are referring to my comments towards BAPS. I have posted the reason why I concluded that BAPS was a cult on this page, you can reply back to that post. Just after this initial part of your post I am getting the feeling that you are not actually a of the uddhav sampradaya but are in fact a devotee of BAPS. Perhaps this is a ploy?
Comment by vspam91@gmail.com - OK I have read through all these posts and the same conclusion comes up everytime. NONE of us have he right to say that "he is LOWER than us" - or - "their reasoing is FLAWED." That is taking abav-avgun(fault finding) of a person, it doesn't matter if you are a satsangi(devotee) or a follower of another religion. No one has the right to say that they are right and everyone else is wrong becuase you are not Bhagwan(God).
I think you are not reading the posts properly, are you sure you understand the basis of this discussion/debate? We or even I am not taking avgun but are pointing out the truth and backing up the claims with scriptural reference, now if that is avgun in your eyes then perhaps you need to back to your books and re-check the definition. Also no one is saying they are bhagwan we are just pointing out what is written in scriptures if you find this hard to digest then just question the references that are provided as this is the only thing that you can do. If the references and the point made are justified then that person is correct. Note this is not about other religions, this is about swaminarayan bhagwan and the sect that he set up.
Comment by vspam91@gmail.com - This article is getting way out of hand. It doens't matter from what part of the Swaminarayan religion that you are from, the moment you take abav-avgun of some then you have a permant scar on yourself (I dont care if you believe it or not, but if you are Swaminarayan (any Swaminarayan) and well versed in the many relgious scriptures as many of the ones that have "contributed" [b/c I should say "taken away from"] to this discussion are, believe in not taking abav-avgun. In other words, many, if not all of us that have written on this page beleive in not taking abav-avgun, whether you BELIEVE in Vadtal or FOLLOW BAPS).
I agree I have proved BAPS to be false yet there are still ignorant people who are posting on this page without actually answering back to any of my posts. Let me explain one thing to you clearly(if you are a devotee of vadtal diocese you should know this, however I will re-iterate the point)Shreeji Maharaj was the head of the Uddhav Sampradaya, he then created two gadis(Amdavad and Vadtal). So what you say doesn’t make sense as according to Swaminarayan Bhagwan there is only one Sampradaya. If you read the rest of this page you would understand this. I have talked about Abhav-Avgun in my previous point.(You seem to be mentioning this term a lot, yet it seems to me you do not know the full meaning of the term in this context)
Comment by vspam91@gmail.com - I AM GOING TO SAY THIS AGAIN SO THAT PEOPLE DONT FORGET, I BELIEVE IN THE VADTAL SAMPRADAY.
You have mentioned this at the start of the post, why do you feel the need to re-iterate your point. Is it because people may not believe you? Next you say I believe in the Vadtal Sampradaya, which to all devotees of Uddhav sampradaya is referred to as Vadtal Gadi and not Sampradaya. Can you see why people might start to think that you are from BAPS and not from Uddhav Sampradaya or Vadtal Sampradaya as you like to call it.
Comment by vspam91@gmail.com - So everyone just stop and think of what you have done. Some regard Pujya Pramukh Swami Maharaj in a bad way (not neccesarily BAD, but many are INDIRECTLY insulting a man of his stature, but I do not see how you can do that, go to the BAPS website (swaminarayan.org), or just google his name and you will not find one bad thing about him.
I myself and others in support of Uddhav Sampradaya have justified our points on this talk page already. Please if you do not like the comments made question them with direct reference instead of making up this post which does not direct at anything specific. Quote and Debate! So because there isn't anything bad about him on google, you came to the conclusion that what he is doing is correct? Is google a scripture? Last time I checked it was a search engine, unless people now regard it as a scripture. Have you ever even glanced at the scriptures of the Uddhav Sampradaya? Please do it should clear up a lot of your doubts and misconceptions.
Comment by vspam91@gmail.com - {on the other hand you will find A LOT OF CONTROVERSY about the Vadtal sampraday. And I dont not deny that. It IS there and it HAS happened, and we in the Vadtal sampraday need to take reponsibilty for the actions of our santos, b/c I dont not believe it to be te work of rival sects, but that is what I think)
What point are you trying to make?, apart from the obvious to show vadtal in a bad light and BAPS to be faultless. Are you sure you’re a devotee from the Vadtal Gadi? ISKCON was hit with scandals, this does not mean they are incorrect. Vadtal was hit with scandals but they have been dealt with, so to answer your point action has been taken.
Comment by vspam91@gmail.com - Just look at the works Pramukh Swami Maharaj has done. The Akshardham CULTURAL complexes in Delhi, and Gandinagar. He was named one of the most influencial persons in the world, and has never hated against anyone. For example, after the terrorist attacks on the Gandinagar Akshardham complex a few yuears ago, the BAPS held a MULTI-religious (cultural) assembly just so that the akward. fragile balance in India and Pakistan would not turn into chaos.
What does all this have to do with Siddhant of Uddhav Sampradaya? Bill gates is going to donate 99.8% of all his money when he dies to charity. What if he starts a swaminarayan sect soon do we start believing him? Look how much money he donates and you wont find anything bad about him on google...WOW lets all bow down to him, he is our saviour. When it comes to issues regarding religion please refer to scriptures to back up your point rather than google or cultural complexes.
Comment by vspam91@gmail.com - And to the arguement of adding MAHARAJ to a persons name -- to those people debating that I say that you are proposing a POINTLESS arguement. It does not matter what a person's title is, It is what you BELIEVE, not what "raj" or "haribhato" (to name some ppl in this disccusion). It doesn't matter what these people say. It is only what thier mind tells them, but if you want to go ahead and beleive them, then do not add to this discussion because obviously you dont have a point of view.
I am trying to put this to you as nicely as possible, it is obvious that you knowledge regarding swaminarayan bhagwan is limited, hence you are not actually debating but merely stating things off the top of your head. We are having a Siddhant debate here where scriptures are referred to not your own personal view. I (HariBhagat NOT haribhato) and Raj have used scriptures to back up our points and we are not forcing anyone to believe. We are placing the facts in front of them(on this page) it is then up to the individual what they believe. Note my mind is not telling me to believe this my Ishtadevs words(from scriptures) are telling me to believe this. Your last sentence does not make sense, this is a talk page anyone with a point of view can post just like yourself, it may not be correct but that doesn’t mean you can stop them from posting.
Comment by vspam91@gmail.com - Religion (in all parts of the world) is mainly about you and god not about RAJ, Haribhakto, Shah, Vivek, and then GOD. NO ---- God is placed before everyone else. And as I have seen, whoever's post it was, they "called out" (challenged) someone to defy them -- get this in your mind YOU are not GOD.) you have no right to challenge anyone to believe that you and only you are right.
No one is claiming to be god, are you sure you have read this page? Perhaps you skimmed through another page. We are challenging those who outright breach the words of Swaminarayan Bhagwan yet claim to believe in him and in actual fact mock him. Of course we can challenge others please refer to Panchala 5(to make it clearer for you this is a reference of the Vachanamrut - a scripture from the Uddhav Sampradaya). If I believe that you are insulting my Ishtadev or saints then I have a right to prove you wrong or challenge you. Was muktanand swami wrong to challenge the scholars in Vadodra? Was Nityanand Swami wrong to challenge all scholars in India? It is clear you do not know enough about the sampradaya but are enthusiastic(I admire this, but I advise you to read more and find out for yourself the truth)
Comment by vspam91@gmail.com - Just to reiterate my point, I am a strongly proponent of the VADTAL sampraday, so I dont want anyone challening that this was more biased then most of the other pieces of garbage posted on this page. The BAPS believes in what they KNOW to be RIGHT and TRUE, and to them I say, "Good job" becuase many of the followers of the same gadi as me, we have not lived up to Swaminarayan Bhagwan's expectations.
Yes you have mentioned this point 3 times(talk about insecurity) BAPS may believe in what they perceive to be right but as a devotee of vadtal gadi you should not say good job, why? They have split themselves from vadtal. They do not accept the authority of vadtal mandir or the acharya. BAPS believe in their own philosophy but not swaminarayan bhagwans philosophy. BAPS can follow what they want, but when they claim that they follow swaminarayan bhagwan or they are correct and we are incorrect that is when we should challenge. Explain how the devotees of the same gadi as you, have not lived up to Swaminarayan Bhagwans expectations? and how you’re trying to say that BAPS have? How can BAPS live up to Swaminarayan Bhagwans expectations if they do not follow what swaminarayan bhagwan has instructed them to do? BAPS was not set up by Swaminarayan Bhagwan or was it?
Comment by vspam91@gmail.com - I would like to hear everyones comment but I do not want anyone to think that I am like user 'haribhagat' (who has posted in this article) and I am not
"challenging anyone who disagrees!"
You are not challenging anyone who disagrees because you know that in actual fact you cannot challenge them. You have not answered any of the questions posed on this talk page yet have written this post just directing at many comments. If you felt the comments were wrong why didn’t you quote and actually explain what is correct(by using scriptural reference of course).
Perhaps you need to decide what you follow and why you actually follow it. To many it may seem that you are a BAPS devotee trying to prove a point in a cunning way, you may be you may not be. One thing is for sure you do not know where your priorities lie. If you believe in Swaminarayan bhagwan to be your Ishtadev then you believe in the following Swaminarayan Bhagwan, Acharyas established by Swaminarayan Bhagwan, Murtis installed by Acharays, Scriptures authenticated by Acharayas, Saints initiated by Acharyas and devotees who are under Vadtal or Amdavad Gadi and not BAPS, as to True Swaminarayan devotees they are VIMOOKHS!!!
Haribhagat 15:47, 6 February 2007 (UTC)